The Way to Building a Secular Lebanon and Secular Constitution and System

Patriot

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
The role of Hezballah would be discussed. The military and the political roles would have to be separated. The military role would have to be agreed upon by the state as a national requirement to protect the borders and deter the Zionist menace on our southern border. There should be some framework to make politics be politics and military be military. The two should not be mixed in a modern state. Whether hezballah becomes a unit of the military or is given some sort of national recognition like the PMU in Iraq.

you got to be kidding me

How can we endorse secularism in Lebanon with such mentality ?
modern state ?
There can be no modern state until HA lay down his weapons and join the national army
How can YOU ask for secularism if you cannot even trust US to join you 'defending the border'
the real problem in Lebanon is HA's weapons and the political imbalance it generates
Let alone the lawless situation that we reached.

Anyone who has HA guarding his back is above the law.
the 'do that/give me that or else..' mentality is the real menace to our society and not the constitution
 

lebanese1

Legendary Member
The role of Hezballah would be discussed. The military and the political roles would have to be separated. The military role would have to be agreed upon by the state as a national requirement to protect the borders and deter the Zionist menace on our southern border. There should be some framework to make politics be politics and military be military. The two should not be mixed in a modern state. Whether hezballah becomes a unit of the military or is given some sort of national recognition like the PMU in Iraq.

cool. so after it is discussed and based on the results, we will see if secularism is possible.
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
cool. so after it is discussed and based on the results, we will see if secularism is possible.

That should actively be part of the process in transforming into a secular state. It is not a matter of "if" and "but". Otherwise we would remain in this state for decades or centuries.
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
you got to be kidding me

How can we endorse secularism in Lebanon with such mentality ?
modern state ?
There can be no modern state until HA lay down his weapons and join the national army
How can YOU ask for secularism if you cannot even trust US to join you 'defending the border'
the real problem in Lebanon is HA's weapons and the political imbalance it generates
Let alone the lawless situation that we reached.

Anyone who has HA guarding his back is above the law.
the 'do that/give me that or else..' mentality is the real menace to our society and not the constitution

I think you're sensationalizing the issues.

If there is a process, then everything would be worked towards a certain goal. How to make the resistance a state apparatus.
 

Patriot

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
I think you're sensationalizing the issues.

cool
good luck forming a government without endorsing the legitimacy of the 'resistance' as clause number 1 in the governmental statement
No one even -dares- to oppose it publicly.

If you really think that the governmental statement is the wish of the majority of the Lebanese population, then you're being delusional.
 

lebanese1

Legendary Member
That should actively be part of the process in transforming into a secular state. It is not a matter of "if" and "but". Otherwise we would remain in this state for decades or centuries.

A secular state can only be the consequence of trust between sects.

Work on trust 1st.

Gher hek ensa and close the thread
 
You start with schools ; ban all the religious schools like Mustafa, Mehdi; Makassed...

No need to ban catholic and other christian schools as most of them differentiate between religious teachings and secular teachings. Plus most of their students are muslims anyway thus leading into more tolerant society.

Increase funding to public schools and make sure that they are truly secular (à la française)

If Islamic schools want to stay open they should clearly distinguish religious from scientific teachings; and they should acquire 5% of students of different religions (which is impossible) so maybe 5% of teachers and administration that comes from an opposite religion is a solution.

Now this would solve islamic isolationism; as for christian isolationism well it is incurable lol (just kidding). Well we should find activities that both Muslims and Christian youth would love and share; sports can be the solution or any other activity.

After 20 to 30 years of mingling you'll still have isolationists which is normal but the majority of the population will be tolerant to each others. And civic codes and ethics will precede religious one and then we'll be ready to apply the constitution proposed by the OP.
 
A secular state can only be the consequence of trust between sects.

Work on trust 1st.

Gher hek ensa and close the thread
I disagree; the trust should be placed between individuals and the state!

I won't go live in Saudi Arabia or Iran because I do not trust the state in these countries regardless of my religious identity.

I don't have a problem to live in Japan or South Korea even though I do not share any cultural or religious affinity with the majority of populations of these two countries. However I trust that i'll be treated with good term within them as an individual.

Liberal democracies put individual freedom and rights above anything else; when you are respected as an individual your sect's right are irrelevant.
 

Patriot

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
I disagree; the trust should be placed between individuals and the state!

I won't go live in Saudi Arabia or Iran because I do not trust the state in these countries regardless of my religious identity.

I don't have a problem to live in Japan or South Korea even though I do not share any cultural or religious affinity with the majority of populations of these two countries. However I trust that i'll be treated with good term within them as an individual.

Liberal democracies put individual freedom and rights above anything else; when you are respected as an individual your sect's right are irrelevant.

Your logic only Works in a homogeneous society
In Lebanon there is no inter-sect trust hence the need for the current constitution to protect different communities rights
 

NAFAR

Legendary Member
Secularism and Islam can never coexist.... any disturbance to the current system will lead to political Islam to take over on the long term.
Turkey and after almost a century of secularism is returning to its islamic roots.
A true Muslim considers Secularism as blasfemy.
 
Your logic only Works in a homogeneous society
In Lebanon there is no inter-sect trust hence the need for the current constitution to protect different communities rights

When your individual rights are preserved there is no meaning for communities right! What is the right of a community anyway how do you define it? and how does it benefit you if you are not a party leader?
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
Secularism and Islam can never coexist.... any disturbance to the current system will lead to political Islam to take over on the long term.
Turkey and after almost a century of secularism is returning to its islamic roots.
A true Muslim considers Secularism as blasfemy.

Doesn't Germany have a Christian party ruling with majority in parliament? Does the partisan identity prevent it from observing the constitution and respecting the secular laws?
 

Patriot

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
When your individual rights are preserved there is no meaning for communities right! What is the right of a community anyway how do you define it? and how does it benefit you if you are not a party leader?

Religions ? Cultures ?
Lebanon is a very multicultural country.
How can you assure my individual rights will be preserved if one day a Muslim majority Parliament decided to pass a law banning alcohol for example (just a small example)

As i said, this requires trust between sects.
the thing that we lack. And is a requirement for secularism in a multi cultural/sect country.

You can abolish religion from a state
But you can’t abolish religion out of the people
 

Dynamite Joe

Well-Known Member
The Lebanese constitution states that the "Lebanese state has no religion". Therefore, the National Pact is unconstitutional and therefore an illegal pact. Legally, anyone can become president, PM or speaker. The sectarian/confessional system goes against the secular nature and spirit of the Lebanese constitution. Therefore, in my humble estimation, Lebanon requires a new modern constitution that will modernize the system and remove religion and sectarianism from the public life.

If you are to add a clause in a new constitution, what will that clause be?

If I were to add a clause, I believe this will be a good start:

"All Lebanese are born equal and are to be treated as equal citizens in front of the law irrespective of sect, religion, gender, sex, sexual preference/orientation, color, class, political affiliation and/or any form of differentiation that may set one person apart from the other".

I would also have this in the constitution:

"A modern grading system for public employment shall be set into law and effect whereby the Lebanese individuals with the best brains who merit employment based on their test results shall be given preference and not based on any other discriminating factors such as religious, sectarian or political affiliation".

And I would also like to have this:

"All marriages conducted in Lebanon will be officially registered under one civil law/code. Religiously conducted marriages are a personal choice in places of worship or in private settings and are of no value or consequence in the sight of the common law".

We have this too:

"The Lebanese constitution guarantees the rights of every person to freely express himself and associate. This includes, but not limited to freedom of speech, religion and political affiliation".

Please add your clauses to our fictional secular constitution you would love to see come into reality.

Amen to that. It's telling to me that the more 'civilized' and 'open-minded' christians are having a fit over your proposal. Only a closed-minded bigot would have an issue with the new clauses you have added.
 

Patriot

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Amen to that. It's telling to me that the more 'civilized' and 'open-minded' christians are having a fit over your proposal. Only a closed-minded bigot would have an issue with the new clauses you have added.

Oh trust me
the issue is not written laws

Taken from the Egyptian constitution:

Freedoms
An entire chapter of the constitutional document is dedicated to defining the basic rights and freedoms to its citizens that is to be provided by the state.
The Constitution upholds that "Individual freedom is a natural right" and regards all citizens as equals. It guarantees a set of freedoms including: The "right to protect the private life of citizens"(Article 45), "Freedom of belief and the freedom of practising religious rights" (Article 46), "Freedom of expression" (Article 47), Freedom of Press and other publications (Article 48), Freedom of Artistic and literary creations and scientific research (Article 49), Freedom of peaceful and unarmed private assembly, without the need for prior notice (Article 54), Universal suffrage, as well as the right to form civil societies (Article 55).f


It sounds wonderful on paper :)

So please spare me the lecture
Unless you feel more civilised than Switzerland endorsing federalism as an acknowledgement for their internal cultural differences.
 

Dynamite Joe

Well-Known Member
Oh trust me
the issue is not written laws

Taken from the Egyptian constitution:

Freedoms
An entire chapter of the constitutional document is dedicated to defining the basic rights and freedoms to its citizens that is to be provided by the state.
The Constitution upholds that "Individual freedom is a natural right" and regards all citizens as equals. It guarantees a set of freedoms including: The "right to protect the private life of citizens"(Article 45), "Freedom of belief and the freedom of practising religious rights" (Article 46), "Freedom of expression" (Article 47), Freedom of Press and other publications (Article 48), Freedom of Artistic and literary creations and scientific research (Article 49), Freedom of peaceful and unarmed private assembly, without the need for prior notice (Article 54), Universal suffrage, as well as the right to form civil societies (Article 55).f


It sounds wonderful on paper :)

So please spare me the lecture
Unless you feel more civilised than Switzerland endorsing federalism as an acknowledgement for their internal cultural differences.

It starts with a paper, then enforcement. You're just using the Egypt example because in your perfect world christians dominate the Levant.
 

Patriot

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
It starts with a paper, then enforcement. You're just using the Egypt example because in your perfect world christians dominate the Levant.

So you’re doing the thinking for me now

Egypt is the perfect example for secularism in a country where Muslims are a majority next to a significant non-Muslim population.

It is the closest example to a secular Lebanon.
 

Dynamite Joe

Well-Known Member
So you’re doing the thinking for me now

Egypt is the perfect example for secularism in a country where Muslims are a majority next to a significant non-Muslim population.

It is the closest example to a secular Lebanon.

I'm simply judging from your backminded posts in other threads. Your stance is do nothing, just maintain the status quo. Nothing works magically, but you have to start from somewhere with the right recipe. The clauses Rachel Corrie posted is where it all starts.
 

Patriot

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
I'm simply judging from your backminded posts in other threads. Your stance is do nothing, just maintain the status quo. Nothing works magically, but you have to start from somewhere with the right recipe. The clauses Rachel Corrie posted is where it all starts.

Again,
Those clauses are also written in the Egyptian constitution. How can you guarantee that my fate won’t end up like the Copts in Egypt ?
Writing then Enforcing ?
Who can i trust enforcing those wonderful words written on paper ?

Sorry but, Federalism is the right recipe for Lebanon.
If not, then the current model gives me more long term peace of mind than secularism.


You say my plan and wish is for Christians dominating the Levant,
If what you’re saying is true, i wouldn’t be asking for federalism.
 

Sayyid Muki

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Again,
Those clauses are also written in the Egyptian constitution. How can you guarantee that my fate won’t end up like the Copts in Egypt ?
Writing then Enforcing ?
Who can i trust enforcing those wonderful words written on paper ?

Sorry but, Federalism is the right recipe for Lebanon.
If not, the current mode gives me more long term peace of mind than secularism.


You say my plan and wish is for Christians dominating the Levant,
If what you’re saying is true, i wouldn’t be asking for federalism.

The fact that they cannot cede even to decentralization, let alone federalism, speaks volumes.

The call for secularism is a power grab.
 
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