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Thoughts on antoun saadeh

Myso

Active Member
Orange Room Supporter
Full disclosure: I think he was an idiot.

Let's start with this quote:

"لم يكن المسيح يهودياً، ولم يكن له أباء يهود، بل كان سورياً يتكلم ويخاطب الجماهير بالسريانية، وهو نفسه رفض أن يدعى "ابن داود" كما أراد اليهود"

He is referring to Luke 20:41–21:4: Then Jesus said to them, “How is it that they say the Christ is the Son of David? 42 David himself declares in the Book of Psalms: “‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 43 until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”’ 44 David calls him ‘Lord.’ How then can he be his son?”

(1) Luke 20:41–21:4 doesn't show he wasn't a Jew. It means he didn't want people to think David was the Messiah's father in a theological structure. (2) Luke himself [which you quote] traces Jesus' ancestry to David and so does Matthew (although the ancestry lines have differences) [Compare Two Genealogies of Jesus in Matthew and Luke]. So Jesus was Jewish and descended from David based on your own source.

"كلنا مسلمون لرب العالمين منا من اسلم لله بالقرآن ومنا من اسلم لله بالانجيل ومنا منا اسلم لله بالحكمة وليس لنا من عدو في وطننا وديننا نقاتله إلا اليهود."

(1) Judaism is closer to Islam (in beliefs and practices) than Islam is to Christianity. So why not say the Jews have "surrendered" to the Torah? (2) And how are Muslims not the enemies of Christians when an Islamic caliphate or vilayat would subdue them to dhimmi status? And perhaps slaughter the Druze as polytheists?

" ليس لنا من عدّو يقاتلنا في ديننا ووطننا وحقنا غير اليهود”…

Really? So Pan-Arabism and Islamism are harmless and good for minorities?


1544419368201.png
 

Ice Tea

Active Member
It seems like those Orthodox Rums who helped shaping Pan-Arabism were just trying to maintain their dhimmi status. After centuries of persecution and the recent genocides at the time, it seems they were more than happy with their 3rd class status. Because Islamism would mean their deaths, at least under Pan-Arabism they would live.

They couldn't be more wrong. Even tho Pan-Arabism was officially 'secular', Islamists used it to mask their Islamist agendas. Saddam Hussein used Pan-Arabism to justify the persecution of Assyrians under his government for example.
 

!Aoune32

Well-Known Member
It seems like those Orthodox Rums who helped shaping Pan-Arabism were just trying to maintain their dhimmi status. After centuries of persecution and the recent genocides at the time, it seems they were more than happy with their 3rd class status. Because Islamism would mean their deaths, at least under Pan-Arabism they would live.

They couldn't be more wrong. Even tho Pan-Arabism was officially 'secular', Islamists used it to mask their Islamist agendas. Saddam Hussein used Pan-Arabism to justify the persecution of Assyrians under his government for example.

I suggest you watch your mouth. Not all the Orthodox are with this Syrian prick and alot of Orthodox were against the Syrians and against any persecution. They fought hard to stay in the respective countries that they live in. 1.8 million in the ME with at least 1.5 still in the ME whilst others especially catholic sects have more than half of their populations outside the countries. I suggest those from Keserwen or from Jbeil go and fight next time against the syrians and dont let those from Achrafiyeh or Zahle do their dirty work. Dhimmis 2al!
 

!Aoune32

Well-Known Member
Full disclosure: I think he was an idiot.

Let's start with this quote:

"لم يكن المسيح يهودياً، ولم يكن له أباء يهود، بل كان سورياً يتكلم ويخاطب الجماهير بالسريانية، وهو نفسه رفض أن يدعى "ابن داود" كما أراد اليهود"

He is referring to Luke 20:41–21:4: Then Jesus said to them, “How is it that they say the Christ is the Son of David? 42 David himself declares in the Book of Psalms: “‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 43 until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”’ 44 David calls him ‘Lord.’ How then can he be his son?”

(1) Luke 20:41–21:4 doesn't show he wasn't a Jew. It means he didn't want people to think David was the Messiah's father in a theological structure. (2) Luke himself [which you quote] traces Jesus' ancestry to David and so does Matthew (although the ancestry lines have differences) [Compare Two Genealogies of Jesus in Matthew and Luke]. So Jesus was Jewish and descended from David based on your own source.

"كلنا مسلمون لرب العالمين منا من اسلم لله بالقرآن ومنا من اسلم لله بالانجيل ومنا منا اسلم لله بالحكمة وليس لنا من عدو في وطننا وديننا نقاتله إلا اليهود."

(1) Judaism is closer to Islam (in beliefs and practices) than Islam is to Christianity. So why not say the Jews have "surrendered" to the Torah? (2) And how are Muslims not the enemies of Christians when an Islamic caliphate or vilayat would subdue them to dhimmi status? And perhaps slaughter the Druze as polytheists?

" ليس لنا من عدّو يقاتلنا في ديننا ووطننا وحقنا غير اليهود”…

Really? So Pan-Arabism and Islamism are harmless and good for minorities?


View attachment 11355

Some of the Orthodox are of the opinion that we are 1 country or 1 people. They believe the people of Lebanon, Palestine, Syria, Jordan and Iraq are 1 people. I dont agree. The problem is not with people like this but a problem when the clergy starts to think like this. We from the Orthodox we have clergy that believes in this Pan Arab bullshit.
Its not about dhimmitude. They just believe that we are 1 country 1 people 1 culture and traditions etc. I dont agree with it and lebanon paid the biggest price for this pan arab khara.
 

Libnene Qu7

Super Ultra Senior Member
Orange Room Supporter
Failed ideology. Even worse execution. Regressed to an ortet zo3ran with a neo-nazi slant. Nothing more than tfeh can be said about him and his orta.
 

Mighty Goat

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Full disclosure: I think he was an idiot.

Let's start with this quote:

"لم يكن المسيح يهودياً، ولم يكن له أباء يهود، بل كان سورياً يتكلم ويخاطب الجماهير بالسريانية، وهو نفسه رفض أن يدعى "ابن داود" كما أراد اليهود"

He is referring to Luke 20:41–21:4: Then Jesus said to them, “How is it that they say the Christ is the Son of David? 42 David himself declares in the Book of Psalms: “‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 43 until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”’ 44 David calls him ‘Lord.’ How then can he be his son?”

(1) Luke 20:41–21:4 doesn't show he wasn't a Jew. It means he didn't want people to think David was the Messiah's father in a theological structure. (2) Luke himself [which you quote] traces Jesus' ancestry to David and so does Matthew (although the ancestry lines have differences) [Compare Two Genealogies of Jesus in Matthew and Luke]. So Jesus was Jewish and descended from David based on your own source.

"كلنا مسلمون لرب العالمين منا من اسلم لله بالقرآن ومنا من اسلم لله بالانجيل ومنا منا اسلم لله بالحكمة وليس لنا من عدو في وطننا وديننا نقاتله إلا اليهود."

(1) Judaism is closer to Islam (in beliefs and practices) than Islam is to Christianity. So why not say the Jews have "surrendered" to the Torah? (2) And how are Muslims not the enemies of Christians when an Islamic caliphate or vilayat would subdue them to dhimmi status? And perhaps slaughter the Druze as polytheists?

" ليس لنا من عدّو يقاتلنا في ديننا ووطننا وحقنا غير اليهود”…

Really? So Pan-Arabism and Islamism are harmless and good for minorities?


View attachment 11355
This is the Christian Orthodox historical relations with the Jews and Anton Saadeh was an anti-semite par excelance. He was a self hating Christian.

True Jesus was not a Jew. He was the son of god and god is not a Jew. His mother was a Levite.
 

Saj

New Member
The first thing about Sa’adeh is that he wasn’t a pan-Arabist in the slightest. Actually, he wanted to downplay Arabism in the region. He also wanted a Syrian ummah because precisely 50% at the time would have been non-Sunni and he wanted Greater Syria to be the power Russia or US were. If he could have gotten his secular state with a society where religion stayed only in the house and in places of worship I don’t know that that would have been a bad thing. The Qawmi didn’t want a pan-Arab state of tribes and conservatism, they want the open culture of the Lebanese society but across “Greater Syria.” I think that’s great but I also think that’s only getting more and more impossible and not worth pursuing.

The second thing is his works are decent but dated and tremendously unclear. Some of his followers read it as leftist, progressive, revolutionary (Inaam Raad), some read it as right wing borderline fascism (Said Akl).

I respect that he knew in the 1930s that zionism, wahabism, sectarianism, and lack of education would haunt our region and tried to root them out before anyone else did. He called that one perfectly. He has his place in history. But no need to make him relevant in 2018.
 

Dark Angel

Legendary Member
Full disclosure: I think he was an idiot.

Let's start with this quote:

"لم يكن المسيح يهودياً، ولم يكن له أباء يهود، بل كان سورياً يتكلم ويخاطب الجماهير بالسريانية، وهو نفسه رفض أن يدعى "ابن داود" كما أراد اليهود"

He is referring to Luke 20:41–21:4: Then Jesus said to them, “How is it that they say the Christ is the Son of David? 42 David himself declares in the Book of Psalms: “‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 43 until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”’ 44 David calls him ‘Lord.’ How then can he be his son?”

(1) Luke 20:41–21:4 doesn't show he wasn't a Jew. It means he didn't want people to think David was the Messiah's father in a theological structure. (2) Luke himself [which you quote] traces Jesus' ancestry to David and so does Matthew (although the ancestry lines have differences) [Compare Two Genealogies of Jesus in Matthew and Luke]. So Jesus was Jewish and descended from David based on your own source.

"كلنا مسلمون لرب العالمين منا من اسلم لله بالقرآن ومنا من اسلم لله بالانجيل ومنا منا اسلم لله بالحكمة وليس لنا من عدو في وطننا وديننا نقاتله إلا اليهود."

(1) Judaism is closer to Islam (in beliefs and practices) than Islam is to Christianity. So why not say the Jews have "surrendered" to the Torah? (2) And how are Muslims not the enemies of Christians when an Islamic caliphate or vilayat would subdue them to dhimmi status? And perhaps slaughter the Druze as polytheists?

" ليس لنا من عدّو يقاتلنا في ديننا ووطننا وحقنا غير اليهود”…

Really? So Pan-Arabism and Islamism are harmless and good for minorities?

not only factually wrong but also idiotic. Christ was Jewish, spoke Arameic. additionally if this truly what saade said, then he was also theologically bankrupt and had absolutely no understanding of his own faith. this is the full passage from luke 20:

41 Then Jesus said to them, “Why is it said that the Messiah is the son of David? 42 David himself declares in the Book of Psalms:
“‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
43 until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”’[c]
44 David calls him ‘Lord.’ How then can he be his son?”

Jesus did not present it because he refused to be called Son of David, but rather presented to point out He is the Lord of David.
 

Mighty Goat

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
The first thing about Sa’adeh is that he wasn’t a pan-Arabist in the slightest. Actually, he wanted to downplay Arabism in the region. He also wanted a Syrian ummah because precisely 50% at the time would have been non-Sunni and he wanted Greater Syria to be the power Russia or US were. If he could have gotten his secular state with a society where religion stayed only in the house and in places of worship I don’t know that that would have been a bad thing. The Qawmi didn’t want a pan-Arab state of tribes and conservatism, they want the open culture of the Lebanese society but across “Greater Syria.” I think that’s great but I also think that’s only getting more and more impossible and not worth pursuing.

The second thing is his works are decent but dated and tremendously unclear. Some of his followers read it as leftist, progressive, revolutionary (Inaam Raad), some read it as right wing borderline fascism (Said Akl).

I respect that he knew in the 1930s that zionism, wahabism, sectarianism, and lack of education would haunt our region and tried to root them out before anyone else did. He called that one perfectly. He has his place in history. But no need to make him relevant in 2018.

He operated from within the same totalitarian paradigm as that of Zionism and also Arabism and Islamism but for him it was called Syrianism. He was a contender over the same territory all these ideologies constructed by reverting to a historical point of an imperial domination which gave a totalitarian identity to a region that has historically been munti-ethnic, and home to a long history of Judaism, to deny and exlude the Jews from the history of Syria falsely. Jews indeed had an existence in the Islamic and the Christian histories of the Levant, Iraq and Egypt as well as Yemen.

His secular discourse is the secular discourse of the Greek Orthodox Church, and I doubt that he was secular, he reverts to the scriptures to explain every point he makes to propagate hate against an identified group. His Syria does not depart from the Roman moment of the Syrian history which included Palestine because before that Syria did not exist as part of history.

Indeed he rejected Arabism and the claim of the Arab identity of Syria, but Syria is the home of the Arabic civilization of not only the Ghassassina but also the Umayyads. So his claim that Syria was not Arab was only a claim to be made by the revival of Rome and the Greek Byzantin Syria.

For him no one existed there before Rome, historical Israel did not exist what existed was the Syrians.
 

Saj

New Member
He operated from within the same totalitarian paradigm as that of Zionism and also Arabism and Islamism but for him it was called Syrianism. He was a contender over the same territory all these ideologies constructed by reverting to a historical point of an imperial domination which gave a totalitarian identity to a region that has historically been munti-ethnic, and home to a long history of Judaism, to deny and exlude the Jews from the history of Syria falsely. Jews indeed had an existence in the Islamic and the Christian histories of the Levant, Iraq and Egypt as well as Yemen.

His secular discourse is the secular discourse of the Greek Orthodox Church, and I doubt that he was secular, he reverts to the scriptures to explain every point he makes to propagate hate against an identified group. His Syria does not depart from the Roman moment of the Syrian history which included Palestine because before that Syria did not exist as part of history.

Indeed he rejected Arabism and the claim of the Arab identity of Syria, but Syria is the home of the Arabic civilization of not only the Ghassassina but also the Umayyads. So his claim that Syria was not Arab was only a claim to be made by the revival of Rome and the Greek Byzantin Syria.

For him no one existed there before Rome, historical Israel did not exist what existed was the Syrians.

His Syria still played a role in the Arab world, but to him the Arab world was four nations, and most of these nations had non-Arab populations who helped form a national identity unrelated to Arabism.

He was definitely hostile to Jews from outside the region, but his position on Syrian Jews was that they were as Syrian as others.

Agree that at his core he was about uniting the Greek Orthodox of the Levant.
 

GrumpForTrump

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
I suggest you watch your mouth. Not all the Orthodox are with this Syrian prick and alot of Orthodox were against the Syrians and against any persecution. They fought hard to stay in the respective countries that they live in. 1.8 million in the ME with at least 1.5 still in the ME whilst others especially catholic sects have more than half of their populations outside the countries. I suggest those from Keserwen or from Jbeil go and fight next time against the syrians and dont let those from Achrafiyeh or Zahle do their dirty work. Dhimmis 2al!

There are no Orthodox Christians or SSNP supporters in Keserwean and Jbeil.

Koura and Metn are the biggest SSNP strongholds.
 

GrumpForTrump

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Anton Saadeh was a proponent of Pan-Syrianism not Pan-Arabism.

I actually think it's a good idea to rally people from different languages and religions around one nationalistic cause.
Being an Orthodox Christian, Antoun must have realized the complex demographic nature of the Levant.
He argued that Syrianism transcended religions distinctions, and thought by advocating the creation of a greater Syria, he would ease sectarian tensions, protect minorities, and counter the rise of Pan-Islamism.

His party managed to attract people from different sects.

I'm a big fan of Antoun Saadeh, although I hate what his party has become.
 

Ice Tea

Active Member
I suggest you watch your mouth. Not all the Orthodox are with this Syrian prick and alot of Orthodox were against the Syrians and against any persecution. They fought hard to stay in the respective countries that they live in. 1.8 million in the ME with at least 1.5 still in the ME whilst others especially catholic sects have more than half of their populations outside the countries. I suggest those from Keserwen or from Jbeil go and fight next time against the syrians and dont let those from Achrafiyeh or Zahle do their dirty work. Dhimmis 2al!

Dude, I'm not blaming the Orthodox. I get why they did it. They thought this ideology would 'unite' all Arabs and they would be spared from persecution, it was merely a self-defense mechanism against Islamism.

Which obviously failed! What makes me cringe is some Orthodox STILL support it, even without realizing it, including you. When you said you feel closer to the likes of @Noborders and other Wahabs from Tripoli just because they are 'Lebanese' and speak the same dialect as you than to Assyrians in Iraq was a prime example of pan Arabism.
 

!Aoune32

Well-Known Member
Dude, I'm not blaming the Orthodox. I get why they did it. They thought this ideology would 'unite' all Arabs and they would be spared from persecution, it was merely a self-defense mechanism against Islamism.

Which obviously failed! What makes me cringe is some Orthodox STILL support it, even without realizing it, including you. When you said you feel closer to the likes of @Noborders and other Wahabs from Tripoli just because they are 'Lebanese' and speak the same dialect as you than to Assyrian inr Iraq was prime example of pan Arabism.

I don't support pan arabism. :)
We actually support the same thing but have different ways of going about it. I believe in a christian state in Lebanon not this pan arabism bullshit that will not work. We are not dhimmis in this country and we shouldn't be dhimmis like the ones that are in Egypt, Iraq or Syria.
You said the Orthodox and that is why I replied to you saying that not all the Orthodox are with this Saadeh. All I am saying is that I don't want extra christians from all over the ME to come into my country and be given citizenship whilst we are the ones who paid the ultimate price with 15 years wars and exterminations whilst those christians who HAD the ideas and opinions of Saadeh were laughing at us and were allied with the regimes in those countries.
 

!Aoune32

Well-Known Member
Saadeh was a dhimmi and a good one at that. These dhimmis created the Baath and the SSNP and in the end got killed or exterminated by those same regimes. So much for Pro Arabism.
 

!Aoune32

Well-Known Member
I wish the Orthodox of Palestine, Syria, Jordan were the same as the Maronites in Lebanon. The maronites fought hard to stay in this country and to preserve their culture. Against all odds they still number over 1 million in Lebanon and are in the top jobs in the country due to their hard work. No one gave it to them. The other christians in the other ME countries should learn a thing or two from them not standing by a regime who has killed you. The christians in Syria love their regime. That same regime who occupied our lands and killed our people. How in the world can I respect such dhimmis who wanted my persecution so their regime and country prospers?

@Ice Tea we are saying the same thing just a different way. :)
I for one do not want to give citizenship to these pricks who were against us christians in lebanon.
 
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