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Unrest in Venezuela - Lebanese are coming back

Dynamite Joe

Dynamite Joe

Well-Known Member
It’s not black and white... unfortunately
I had the same stance as you, I am a bit more reserved at this point. I spoke with a Venezuelan colleague: his view is totally aligned with Guaido... the USA is interfering but the underlying politics and popular feelings seem to be in their favour... I am suspicious of American foreign policy and tend to believe they will exploit the Venezuelans and their resources, but it seems this putsch is supported by the majority of the population ...
Don’t be pathetic, if the country is in economic dire straits, it’s due to the predatory policy of the US to undermine the current government. You can’t just look at the conditions now and ignore what caused them.


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  • Walidos

    Walidos

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Don’t be pathetic, if the country is in economic dire straits, it’s due to the predatory policy of the US to undermine the current government. You can’t just look at the conditions now and ignore what caused them.


    Sent from my iPhone using Orange Room
    First off, you don’t get to call me pathetic.

    Second, I am relating information from a Venezuelan colleague. How arrogant are you to think you know better?

    I
     
    Abou Sandal

    Abou Sandal

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    It’s not black and white... unfortunately
    I had the same stance as you, I am a bit more reserved at this point. I spoke with a Venezuelan colleague: his view is totally aligned with Guaido... the USA is interfering but the underlying politics and popular feelings seem to be in their favour... I am suspicious of American foreign policy and tend to believe they will exploit the Venezuelans and their resources, but it seems this putsch is supported by the majority of the population ...
    What you just said is very interesting. And ironically, I would have started my answer by "it's not black and white", but you beat me to it...lol.
    Truth is, there is a certain category of the population, maybe 10 or 15 percent of it, that is absolutely and unconditionally against Maduro, and Chavez before him, and that is ready to do anything to oust them. This is the class in the population, that benefited from the old corrupt system of governance, that was lead by petro-dollar mafia and corporations, tightly allied/controlled by the US petro-dollar industry and interests.

    That system of governance created a huge gap between a filthy rich and educated part of the society, and a desperately poor one, that constituted more than 80 percent of the population, most of which ended up living in slums and other poorly neglected areas, while State was in huge debts. The labor and indigenous part of the population finally rose against this system of ruling, in the same line that preceded in most Latin America and in which, people called for abolition of austerity plans (created by IMF and World bank mafias) and debt forgiveness, and it is within that context that Chavez appeared and led the movement in Venezuela.

    The only difference with other Latin American countries that took the same path, was that Venezuela was sitting on the biggest oil reserves...so the rest is predictable.

    Now the cynical part of the story is this: After many years of imposed sanctions by the US, of the most inhumane and illegal ones, with the complete indifference of the whole World, which is even helping the US with its sanctions, many people in Venezuela are so tired, that they prefer to renounce to their project of freedom and independence, if that would mean ending up the current situation, knowing very well that it might mean a much worse situation, most probably a reversal to the old corrupt dictatorship system. In simple words, anything but the current situation.

    Which is precisely what the US has been working on. And so far, it has succeeded.

    Now did Venezuela reach a point where a majority of its population wants an end to the Bolivarian revolution? I doubt it, and I doubt there will ever be such majority. Because just like in Iran, North Korea, Syria, China, or even Russia at a certain point, there are much more other factors in play than the economy, that lead the indigenous people of these countries to resist no matter what the cost will be.

    And this is precisely why, and unless a group of Nations comes over to help Venezuela overcome the sanctions imposed against it, the next step will be war. because the US knows that it has reached the maximum size of the population ready to follow it, and only war can shuffle the cards and redistribute them back, irrelevant of the majority/minority game,

    We witnessed the exact same play in all colorful revolutions that preceded. It worked in some countries and failed in some others. I believe it would fail in Venezuela, but I'm not sure at which cost.

    In the meantime, and like I said earlier, fact is that the whole World is watching the US destroying yet another country and killing its people for the sole purpose of stealing its wealth and resources, and no one has yet done anything about it. The strongest just “voice concern” while the weakest are busy barking at the victim and blaming it. Disgraceful.
     
    Frisbeetarian

    Frisbeetarian

    Legendary Member
    65% of the Venezuelan economy is in the private sector. 70% of the workforce is employed by private companies. The debate concerning socialism not working in Venezuela is moot, since socialism isn't even a reality there to begin with. Just more imperialist propaganda designed to legitimize invasions, occupations and coups.
     
    Joe tayyar

    Joe tayyar

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Yeah ok, USA will invade Venezuela, because they want people to take their freedom. Been there done thats, lets count the millions that will die when the war for freedom will come.
     
    Walidos

    Walidos

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    What you just said is very interesting. And ironically, I would have started my answer by "it's not black and white", but you beat me to it...lol.
    Truth is, there is a certain category of the population, maybe 10 or 15 percent of it, that is absolutely and unconditionally against Maduro, and Chavez before him, and that is ready to do anything to oust them. This is the class in the population, that benefited from the old corrupt system of governance, that was lead by petro-dollar mafia and corporations, tightly allied/controlled by the US petro-dollar industry and interests.

    That system of governance created a huge gap between a filthy rich and educated part of the society, and a desperately poor one, that constituted more than 80 percent of the population, most of which ended up living in slums and other poorly neglected areas, while State was in huge debts. The labor and indigenous part of the population finally rose against this system of ruling, in the same line that preceded in most Latin America and in which, people called for abolition of austerity plans (created by IMF and World bank mafias) and debt forgiveness, and it is within that context that Chavez appeared and led the movement in Venezuela.

    The only difference with other Latin American countries that took the same path, was that Venezuela was sitting on the biggest oil reserves...so the rest is predictable.

    Now the cynical part of the story is this: After many years of imposed sanctions by the US, of the most inhumane and illegal ones, with the complete indifference of the whole World, which is even helping the US with its sanctions, many people in Venezuela are so tired, that they prefer to renounce to their project of freedom and independence, if that would mean ending up the current situation, knowing very well that it might mean a much worse situation, most probably a reversal to the old corrupt dictatorship system. In simple words, anything but the current situation.

    Which is precisely what the US has been working on. And so far, it has succeeded.

    Now did Venezuela reach a point where a majority of its population wants an end to the Bolivarian revolution? I doubt it, and I doubt there will ever be such majority. Because just like in Iran, North Korea, Syria, China, or even Russia at a certain point, there are much more other factors in play than the economy, that lead the indigenous people of these countries to resist no matter what the cost will be.

    And this is precisely why, and unless a group of Nations comes over to help Venezuela overcome the sanctions imposed against it, the next step will be war. because the US knows that it has reached the maximum size of the population ready to follow it, and only war can shuffle the cards and redistribute them back, irrelevant of the majority/minority game,

    We witnessed the exact same play in all colorful revolutions that preceded. It worked in some countries and failed in some others. I believe it would fail in Venezuela, but I'm not sure at which cost.

    In the meantime, and like I said earlier, fact is that the whole World is watching the US destroying yet another country and killing its people for the sole purpose of stealing its wealth and resources, and no one has yet done anything about it. The strongest just “voice concern” while the weakest are busy barking at the victim and blaming it. Disgraceful.
    We agree on it not being straightforward... I think the way things are happening are completely wrong (and you can tell from my earlier posts on This thread). What I have come to understand though is that there is in fact a popular claim to change, which the USA is using. In all honesty, in the 90s, if the USA or any other country would have asked Syria to leave and threaten sanctions etc..., i would have said bravo and fully supported them... i know now that it would have been far worse than what we have now, but at the time, I’m pretty sure i would have supported. So I think this is how the Venezuelans are reacting. And the 1 thing I disagree on in your post, is that it is either a communist far left regime or dictatorship of the world bank and capitalist... there is a place between communism and tyranny - this leftist regime has proven a massive failure by all accounts. My hope for the Venezuelans is that they move from the Maduro regime to a more democratic regime without swinging to pendulum to a far right dictatorship
     
    Dynamite Joe

    Dynamite Joe

    Well-Known Member
    First off, you don’t get to call me pathetic.

    Second, I am relating information from a Venezuelan colleague. How arrogant are you to think you know better?

    I
    You made a pathetic statement and ignored entirely what led to Venezuela's current state. Your colleague is either biased or lacking information.
     
    Walidos

    Walidos

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    You made a pathetic statement and ignored entirely what led to Venezuela's current state. Your colleague is either biased or lacking information.
    Yes, a Venezuelan is biased or lacking information about his own country, and a prick on a Lebanese forum knows best about Venezuela and the insides of Venezuelan politics...

    #arrogant #khewitoun

    #bala_habal
     
    Dynamite Joe

    Dynamite Joe

    Well-Known Member
    Yes, a Venezuelan is biased or lacking information about his own country, and a prick on a Lebanese forum knows best about Venezuela and the insides of Venezuelan politics...

    #arrogant #khewitoun

    #bala_habal
    It seems this situation has made you highly emotional. There are also Lebanese people who don't believe U.S. policies have screwed up our country... doesn't mean it's true. You continually say this regime has been a massive failure while ignoring U.S. policies have suffocated the country to ensure failure. Now that they have successfully destabilized the country, they are seeking regime change. Their fingerprints are all over this. To ignore all of that and blame the current conditions squarely on Maduro is disingenuous.
     
    Last edited:
    Genius

    Genius

    Legendary Member
    Yes, a Venezuelan is biased or lacking information about his own country, and a prick on a Lebanese forum knows best about Venezuela and the insides of Venezuelan politics...

    #arrogant #khewitoun

    #bala_habal
    My Venezuelan friends want Maduro out. All of them, no exceptions.

    Anywhere socialists or Islamists set a foot always the same output. Business is for the capitalists. Yes, they benefit, but they always leave room for others to benefit as well. Look at the UAE..

    Social policies of Chavez, followed by maduro have ruined the country completely. Add to that the ideology of defiance with no means to go agaisnt the superpowers.

    Putin has given around 20 billions as dettes to maduro, and he is trying to keep him in power because if he is ousted, then the money is gone. Lol.

    Only death to America dudes on this forum are pro maduro. Claiming morals and justice. Same claims by all dictators.
    They can keep repeating death to America day and night.
     
    Walidos

    Walidos

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    It seems this situation has made you highly emotional. There are also Lebanese people who don't believe U.S. policies have screwed up our country... doesn't mean it's true. You continually say this regime has been a massive failure while ignoring U.S. policies have suffocated the country to ensure failure. Now that they have successfully destabilized the country, they are seeking regime change. Their fingerprints are all over this. To ignore all of that and blame the current conditions squarely on Maduro is disingenuous.
    Except you are making all this story up... I never said a word about Maduro or his regime. My immediate reaction to the current situation was that the USA is planning a coup, and the only addition I made was to say that yes the USA is working the coup but it is not as straightforward as it seems because there is popular support behind this, there is a strong popular opinion on the last elections and we can’t discard that because we disagree with the USA foreign politics. I finally said I hope the Venezuela’s manage this in the right way to avoid the “historical effects of American interference”...

    Dakhilak stop making up things and answering them quoting me...
     
    Walidos

    Walidos

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    My Venezuelan friends want Maduro out. All of them, no exceptions.

    Anywhere socialists or Islamists set a foot always the same output. Business is for the capitalists. Yes, they benefit, but they always leave room for others to benefit as well. Look at the UAE..

    Social policies of Chavez, followed by maduro have ruined the country completely. Add to that the ideology of defiance with no means to go agaisnt the superpowers.

    Putin has given around 20 billions as dettes to maduro, and he is trying to keep him in power because if he is ousted, then the money is gone. Lol.

    Only death to America dudes on this forum are pro maduro. Claiming morals and justice. Same claims by all dictators.
    They can keep repeating death to America day and night.
    While I don’t condone your full post, I agree that it looks like popular support is largely on the side of Guaido and the USA...
     
    Muki

    Muki

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Coming out of the mess that was pre-Chavez Venezuela, there was a heavy reliance on oil to fund the social projects that cut homelessness and poverty and unemployment by truly remarkable numbers, and led Venezuela to being the second most literate country in all of Latin America. Why would Venezuela opt to develop its infrastructure instead of fulfilling its social promises, when no one could have predicted such a sudden fall in oil prices? By the way, oil is internationally traded on the dollar, making foreign manipulation very easy. And this is without discussing the sanctions and economic war that have been waged on Venezuela. The US doesn’t want them to succeed and that’s the primary issue here.

    Even since Maduro took power, housing has been built for two million poor Venezuelans. 500,000 a year, no small feat. The working class people have been the priority. How does one diversify their economy in a year or two while the US has spent decades failing to diversify its energy production?

    Pre-Chavez Venezuela is at fault for being so underdeveloped that it wouldn’t allow for a diversification of the economy immediately, because the needs of the Venezuelan people needed to be met first.
    The problem isn't Chavez' intention of alleviating poverty.
    The problem is in his implementation.

    He overspent on social welfare, and fixed prices for everything. He became hostile to foreign investment and took up billions of dollars in loans from China and Russia. He declared farmlands stateland then abandoned them. Instead of diversifying the economy, he made Venezuela dependent on selling its oil abroad and made sure the country would be held hostage to boom-bust cycles of the global oil economy.
    Maduro continued the same practices, and his government stopped publishing reliable statistics. He took bribes for construction projects and racked up debts that Venezuela is still struggling to pay. As the price of Venezuela's only commodity continues to plunge, it is not surprising to see Venezuela's economy in shambles.

    Sanctions and US pressure from abroad can make things harder, but they do not create the initial conditions.
     
    Genius

    Genius

    Legendary Member
    The problem isn't Chavez' intention of alleviating poverty.
    The problem is in his implementation.

    He overspent on social welfare, and fixed prices for everything. He became hostile to foreign investment and took up billions of dollars in loans from China and Russia. He declared farmlands stateland then abandoned them. Instead of diversifying the economy, he made Venezuela dependent on selling its oil abroad and made sure the country would be held hostage to boom-bust cycles of the global oil economy.
    Maduro continued the same practices, and his government stopped publishing reliable statistics. He took bribes for construction projects and racked up debts that Venezuela is still struggling to pay. As the price of Venezuela's only commodity continues to plunge, it is not surprising to see Venezuela's economy in shambles.

    Sanctions and US pressure from abroad can make things harder, but they do not create the initial conditions.
    Too many economic mistakes.
    With all the oil money they had, the country had no money reserves at all. The first economic bump and they had no room to maneuver.
    Wasn't Chavez who called bush the devil in one of the summits? Lol ... maduro can dance salsa though, while his people are starving.
     
    Walidos

    Walidos

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    I don’t think any mistake makes this... the whole system of communism doesn’t work... period
     
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