What now for the "7irak"?

Jacques Hirac

Jacques Hirac

New Member
It seems to me that a lot of the energy of the "7irak" is currently still being wasted on the same rhetoric that has, in my opinion, already served its purpose the first 3 days of the "revolution".
In short: People are unsatisfied with the way things are, a lot of people don't trust their elected representatives, and they want change.
At best, this rhetoric is able to destabilize the status quo, and make the general population at least concerned with what is happening in the country. And it has! It has achieved that! 💪
However, how can the free and independent people continue from there? Is repeating the same "badna 72oo2na" with such ardor still serving a purpose? Or should their stance evolve into something more concrete?
It is becoming clearer and clearer each day that a sudden switch of 180° from a corrupt political system to a clean one is not possible. The transition will have to be slow and it will necessitate a period of coexistence between the "traditional corrupt parties" and the "new clean ones".
Doesn't that mean the clean hirak needs to at some point participate in a not-so-perfect government? To choose sides in different situations? To give and accept support on political decisions when needed?

From what I observe, the current general atmosphere of the hirak can be summarized by this:

I don't think this helps much, not at this point. Wosel el message men zamen.
But what else can they do?
"We give the ministry seats to the 7irak, if they accept." - GB
Teb how can they accept or reject?
Are there serious independent candidates today that have expressed a will to take on such responsibilities? Why are we not seeing support for those candidates in media and on the streets?
If such candidates existed, then their stance on large national issues such as immigration, oil & gas, economy, and foreign threats on Lebanese sovereignty can be made clear.
Then we'll be at least speaking the same language…

I realize that I kind of gave my own opinion by responding to the question myself.
But I would like to know what you guys think…
 
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    illusion84

    Member
    Repeat after me "Th"; "Th" ; "Thawra"; "Thawritna mish Hirak"
     
    Dynamis

    Dynamis

    Well-Known Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Repeat after me "Th"; "Th" ; "Thawra"; "Thawritna mish Hirak"
    Repeat after me Fawra, Fawretkon Mish Thawra bas Fawra.
    You have been used like “useful idiots”. Now the king of corruption Hariri is comming back as PM. This is against every slogan that you chanted. This shows that the “useful idiots” of the “Fawra” where used and now tossed aside like a used Kleenex.

    when the fawra group is chanting obscenities from day one, and that was the only thing that was unifying them, you will reap the rewards now. Karma is a *****.

    Blame only yourself and your anarchist mind for bankrupting the country and pushing it over the edge into the abyss.
     
    Dr. Strangelove

    Dr. Strangelove

    Nuclear War Expert
    Orange Room Supporter
    What strikes me the most about the legitimate portion of the protests is its hesitance to step up to any sort of responsibility. It would make sense for new players to eventually sprout from the fertile political soils of the last two months, but there's barely been any sign of basic direction, let alone meaningful political organization. After almost two months, the (legitimate) protesters are still utterly confused, almost purely reactionary and as gullible to the manipulation of the political class they oppose as they've ever been. It's a shame, really, and I truly believe the rage that lead the people to go down and protest in the first couple of days could have led to something far greater than what we have now.

    For the most part, I agree with @Jacques Hirac's post (cool nickname by the way, and welcome to the forums). For the protests to become proactive in any way (without turning violent), they need to find their voice. What do they want? How do they plan on getting what they want? WHO do they want? This will naturally lead to segmentation, but I think it would be a step up from the messy and easily exploitable state the "thawra" is in now.

    Instead, we have this:
    Repeat after me "Th"; "Th" ; "Thawra"; "Thawritna mish Hirak"
    OP has raised interesting points, and all you care about is that they called the protests "hirak" and not "thawra". If anyone's opinion really matters here, it's yours. What do you think the movement needs to become? How do you think it should evolve to become a more meaningful political force than what it is right now?
     
    Dynamis

    Dynamis

    Well-Known Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    It seems to me that a lot of the energy of the "7irak" is currently still being wasted on the same rhetoric that has, in my opinion, already served its purpose the first 3 days of the "revolution".
    In short: People are unsatisfied with the way things are, a lot of people don't trust their elected representatives, and they want change.
    At best, this rhetoric is able to destabilize the status quo, and make the general population at least concerned with what is happening in the country. And it has! It has achieved that! 💪
    However, how can the free and independent people continue from there? Is repeating the same "badna 72oo2na" with such ardor still serving a purpose? Or should their stance evolve into something more concrete?
    It is becoming clearer and clearer each day that a sudden switch of 180° from a corrupt political system to a clean one is not possible. The transition will have to be slow and it will necessitate a period of coexistence between the "traditional corrupt parties" and the "new clean ones".
    Doesn't that mean the clean hirak needs to at some point participate in a not-so-perfect government? To choose sides in different situations? To give and accept support on political decisions when needed?

    From what I observe, the current general atmosphere of the hirak can be summarized by this:

    I don't think this helps much, not at this point. Wosel el message men zamen.
    But what else can they do?
    "We give the ministry seats to the 7irak, if they accept." - GB
    Teb how can they accept or reject?
    Are there serious independent candidates today that have expressed a will to take on such responsibilities? Why are we not seeing support for those candidates in media and on the streets?
    If such candidates existed, then their stance on large national issues such as immigration, oil & gas, economy, and foreign threats on Lebanese sovereignty can be made clear.
    Then we'll be at least speaking the same language…

    I realize that I kind of gave my own opinion by responding to the question myself.
    But I would like to know what you guys think…
    The video and your thread show hat you are not Hirak, but a cloaked March 14 supporter whose only interest is to attack FPM. The Only Video that you posted is a video where there is a Fawrajeh spewing nonsense, directed at Alain Aoun, and the other stooges in the audience clapping. You are still positioning the Fawra against FPM and only against FPM based on your selective selection of videos and commentary.

    This fawrageh is a hypocrite, just like you. He feels entitled to do all these things, but does not want to earn it. If he was really hungry, he would work at a gas station, at a field, in construction, at a factory instead of all these institutions employing foreign laborers. There are PLENTY of Jobs in Lebanon. Look at the amount of foreign help we import everyday, and the amount of Syrians, Philipinos, Sri Lankans, Egyptians, etc employed in Lebanon...Love does not need money, sorry to tell you and him. if it was true love, they will live in a shack and make it together. But he probably has deep seated issues since he mentions being fired from his job, and not being able to get married.

    This guy has no understanding of democracy. The 51% of people that did not vote, are their fault not the government. There are many circumstances for people not voting, and most countries have similar voting percentages.
     
    Dr. Strangelove

    Dr. Strangelove

    Nuclear War Expert
    Orange Room Supporter
    The video and your thread that you are not Hirak, but a cloaked March 14 supporter whose only interest is to attack FPM. The Only Video that you posted is a video where there is a Fawrajeh spewing nonsense, directed at Alain Aoun, and the other stooges in the audience clapping. You are still positioning the Fawra against FPM and only against FPM based on your selective selection of videos and commentary.

    This fawrageh is a hypocrite, just like you. He feels entitled to do all these things, but does not want to earn it. If he was really hungry, he would work at a gas station, at a field, in construction, at a factory instead of all these institutions employing foreign laborers. There are PLENTY of Jobs in Lebanon. Look at the amount of foreign help we import everyday, and the amount of Syrians, Philipinos, Sri Lankans, Egyptians, etc employed in Lebanon...Love does not need money, sorry to tell you and him. if it was true love, they will live in a shack and make it together. But he probably has deep seated issues since he mentions being fired from his job, and not being able to get married.

    This guy has no understanding of democracy. The 51% of people that did not vote, are their fault not the government. There are many circumstances for people not voting, and most countries have similar voting percentages.
    Reread the initial post. I think you misunderstood Jacques's point. He's clearly pointing flaws in the non-partisan protesters' arguments and asking how the "hirak" should evolve for the better. At least, I think that's what he's saying.

    Tene shi, lesh bet dallak 7emel el sellom bel 3ard? Chill. 😅
     
    Nonan

    Nonan

    Well-Known Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    If I were Gebran Bassil, I would give ministry of Power to Charbel NaHas, insist on Corm taking MoF and give Ministry of Foreign Affairs to Ali Barakat (the singer, may have gotten his name wrong) in exchange.
     
    I

    illusion84

    Member
    Repeat after me Fawra, Fawretkon Mish Thawra bas Fawra.
    You have been used like “useful idiots”. Now the king of corruption Hariri is comming back as PM. This is against every slogan that you chanted. This shows that the “useful idiots” of the “Fawra” where used and now tossed aside like a used Kleenex.

    when the fawra group is chanting obscenities from day one, and that was the only thing that was unifying them, you will reap the rewards now. Karma is a *****.

    Blame only yourself and your anarchist mind for bankrupting the country and pushing it over the edge into the abyss.

    Ma bada to3ssib; the revolutionaries are doing their best to put light on corruption.

    That's way better than sharing power with them for the last 3 years no ?

    At least one good outcome of this revolution is that FPM is back to fighting corruption... I hope that they start from within their ranks though and not just use this as a leverage against Hariri.
     
    I

    illusion84

    Member
    OP has raised interesting points, and all you care about is that they called the protests "hirak" and not "thawra". If anyone's opinion really matters here, it's yours. What do you think the movement needs to become? How do you think it should evolve to become a more meaningful political force than what it is right now?
    It takes time; I was hearing Ziad Abs this morning and he's right; they can't become a political force just now! You still have leftist vs rightists ; christians vs muslims. If you ask them to transform into a party they'll turn on each others.

    For now they are collaborating their moves and they are getting strategic about it.

    For example Jal Deeb incident yesterday was coordinated in secret; we only knew about it after it happened! And the organisers are revolutionaries from all over lebanon in coordination with Jal el Deeb revolutionaries.

    I'm not saying that cutting road is a good thing, I'm just talking about the coordination level and the will of the revolution.

    For now the goal is putting pressure on the politicians; later on forming a political party or parties; ultimately participating in elections.

    Personally I believe that the pressure part is the most important part; politicians should not behave like they have a free pass any more.

    Ma3leh Lebanon is not a gulf state based on Petro dollars; Lebanese pay taxes and they should have rights and politicians should fear and answer to us the common people.
     
    Dr. Strangelove

    Dr. Strangelove

    Nuclear War Expert
    Orange Room Supporter
    Personally I believe that the pressure part is the most important part; politicians should not behave like they have a free pass any more.

    Ma3leh Lebanon is not a gulf state based on Petro dollars; Lebanese pay taxes and they should have rights and politicians should fear and answer to us the common people.
    I strongly agree with this part, right here. Popular pressure is an enabler. You can enable a judge to stand up to political pressure, or an honest politician to enact reforms. Problem is, you can also enable corruption as well, even if it is not the intention. That's where direction/coordination (leadership) comes in - to judge when and where to apply pressure, and when and where not to.

    I guess the big question is how to effectively establish that leadership, and how to turn the protests into something more proactive than just an enabler.
     
    Jacques Hirac

    Jacques Hirac

    New Member
    The video and your thread show hat you are not Hirak, but a cloaked March 14 supporter whose only interest is to attack FPM. The Only Video that you posted is a video where there is a Fawrajeh spewing nonsense, directed at Alain Aoun, and the other stooges in the audience clapping. You are still positioning the Fawra against FPM and only against FPM based on your selective selection of videos and commentary.

    This fawrageh is a hypocrite, just like you. He feels entitled to do all these things, but does not want to earn it. If he was really hungry, he would work at a gas station, at a field, in construction, at a factory instead of all these institutions employing foreign laborers. There are PLENTY of Jobs in Lebanon. Look at the amount of foreign help we import everyday, and the amount of Syrians, Philipinos, Sri Lankans, Egyptians, etc employed in Lebanon...Love does not need money, sorry to tell you and him. if it was true love, they will live in a shack and make it together. But he probably has deep seated issues since he mentions being fired from his job, and not being able to get married.

    This guy has no understanding of democracy. The 51% of people that did not vote, are their fault not the government. There are many circumstances for people not voting, and most countries have similar voting percentages.
    My thread was inspired by this video. In the past two days all I have been hearing and reading from the "thouwar" is along the lines of this video. I think it's a waste really.
    Time and time again all the "thawra" manages to voice out uniformly on a political level is either bickering or disapproval and hatred towards political parties.. It's important to raise the alarms and point out on injustice and all, but after two months I was hoping for this to evolve into something more. Thus the thread..
    Finally, I agree with you that the guy's opening statement is super flawed but I disagree about me being a cloaked March 14 supporter.
     
    NewLeb

    NewLeb

    New Member
    The protests are going nowhere because, on an individual basis, the protesters simply lack what it takes.

    Qualities of true leadership are absent- it’s mostly old and naive women; young men who’ve never had a job in their lives and still rely on mom to make them a picon sandwich; and rich college students who just parrot everything they learned in Politics 101.

    Essentially, they’re all broke, weak, and confused.
     
    Picasso

    Picasso

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    أظنُّ أنّ الحِراكَ كانَ تأسيساً لوعيٍ جديد (اقتصادي اجتماعي) أكثرَ منه حالة سياسية منظمة

    لذا، لا ينبغي تأطيره. والسلطة المنافقة حاولت ذلك من خلال الإصرار على لائحة مطالب. والشعب لا يحدّد بل يريد، والساسة ورجال الدولة، الغائبون في لبنان، يخططون وينفّذون
     
    Dynamis

    Dynamis

    Well-Known Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    أظنُّ أنّ الحِراكَ كانَ تأسيساً لوعيٍ جديد (اقتصادي اجتماعي) أكثرَ منه حالة سياسية منظمة

    لذا، لا ينبغي تأطيره. والسلطة المنافقة حاولت ذلك من خلال الإصرار على لائحة مطالب. والشعب لا يحدّد بل يريد، والساسة ورجال الدولة، الغائبون في لبنان، يخططون وينفّذون
    ya latif. Kil she wala tsade2 halak.
    You dont represent the people. You represent a very small sliver. No more no less.
    Yes most of the demands were righteous but the hirak execution was horrible.
     
    Jacques Hirac

    Jacques Hirac

    New Member
    أظنُّ أنّ الحِراكَ كانَ تأسيساً لوعيٍ جديد (اقتصادي اجتماعي) أكثرَ منه حالة سياسية منظمة

    لذا، لا ينبغي تأطيره. والسلطة المنافقة حاولت ذلك من خلال الإصرار على لائحة مطالب. والشعب لا يحدّد بل يريد، والساسة ورجال الدولة، الغائبون في لبنان، يخططون وينفّذون
    I honestly don't trust much in this weird algorithm that is meant to eventually decide what the people want.
    If there were a way to factorize all the posts on social media and all the chants on the streets, what kind of voice do we end up with? With every major event that is happening today, we seem to be going farther and farther away from this goal of having a clean and uncorrupt non-sectarian country. I think that as long as the 7irak is unable to distinguish itself from infiltrators in whatever way possible, its outcome will remain in favor of the most organized entity in its ranks. It doesn't matter how many "kellon ya3ne kellon"s are chanted, as long as the 7irak is not organized, political parties will keep finding ways to exploit this "voice of the people" to fulfill their own political agendas. I am sure that the last thing this reincarnated March 14 group wants is to see the hirak succeed in organizing itself.
    If it's impossible to have representatives of the 7irak, can it atleast have independant and uncorrupt individuals that they can support? If I were the hirak and I could convince all the Lebanese people of only one thing, would I choose to convince them that Gebran is a thief and/or a failure? Or would I choose to convince them of Charbel Nahas's vision for how Lebanese politics should be? How much support is Nahas getting today by the 7irak? Is that not proof enough that it is not the 7irak who is deciding what the 7irak says today? (Nahas is just an example)
    If it's a taboo to support individuals because we risk making them "zoo3ama", then let's atleast agree on certain values. Hating on this politician or that politician is participating in the exact same failed political thinking that has been damaging Lebanon for years. How is the 7irak better than el 3awniyye wel ouwet? Just in that it hates all the parties equally? This can't be the 7irak's main principle...
    If the 7irak is supposed to remain a form of popular pressure to enforce reform and force political parties to do what's best for the country, then this involves being able to support those same political parties when they perform and not just bash them when they fail. After all the "ma badna a7zeb bel solta" campagne, is there still room for the 7irak to support a "7ezb" when it actually delivers? We won't participate in the government as "7irak", then shouldn't we atleast admit that we need those politicians as much as they need us? Are those politicians only bluffing about fighting corruption and reforming? Then all we can do is call their bluff and follow up closely. To really keep an eye and distinguish between the different parties to be able to support whoever does take steps towards fixing the country. Can the 7irak do that while chanting "kellon ya3ne kellon"?
     
    WiseCookie

    WiseCookie

    Well-Known Member
    That's a good question really. I watched the news for hours yesterday, and I still did not come out with an understanding as to what the protesters wanted other than blocking the formation of a government composed of the political elite. I don't live in Lebanon for reference, so I could be missing something.

    I personally believe that they're focused on the wrong thing. Instead of focusing on the government, which is a product of parliament, they should be demanding for new parliamentary elections. That way you can reset the entire equation, and show the true pulse of the street.
     
    mike89

    mike89

    Active Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Agree. The question which is always open for answers and Nobody from the demonstrators wants to answer is:
    Then what?
    I agree that the parties didn't give an answer either, because they re afraid of political losses. Then what? Is a valid question and should be worth a discussion. At least we should hear out the different opinions we as forum members share, instead of vilifying one another at all costs.

    My opinion is as follows, at least at the economic side of it:
    Go for the socially acceptable haircut accounts bigger than 200k are cut (e.g. don't know the numbers), go after the big corruption files until the end, unpeg the artificially rated lbp in a Serie of slow steps and get a Jumpstart to local businesses with an income based on productivity in relation to other similarly developed countries. The Peg is an expensive commodity which might have worked until now based on government debts, but it cannot go as is in the actual situation. The political situation isn't getting the right circumstances to attract the needed capital to keep the peg anymore. And this is not gonna happen any time soon as far as I can see. Protests, road blocks and strikes do not help at that normally. Maybe what comes out afterwards, but in themselves they re not helping.

    It's either that or redo the whole scenario all over again. Financial engineering, highest interest rates, new loans from even more institutions and governments based on quick roi. With worse consequences. Going bankrupt is preprogrammed.

    You could bet on oil and gas and a complete reform of the political system and its very slow inflexible unfruitful way of doing things, I wouldn't... I see people on the streets betting on that, I am not sure how that could happen with all the geopolitical and worldwide interference Lebanon typically is ruled by.
     
    Jorje

    Jorje

    Legendary Member
    This is ridiculous.

    It's not the job of ordinary protesters to set an economic agenda.

    It's even more absurd to think they should join "a not so perfect government" pretty much run by those who got us to this stage. The only thing that will do is relegitimize the corrupt gang. I mean, excuse me, but lmao. :)

    Most of these "demands" are coming from people connected to the ruling class and whose only objective is to destroy the movement and return us back to the status quo. Luckily, there is more political awareness on the street than to fall for this sort of naivety.
     
    Jorje

    Jorje

    Legendary Member
    Since some of you are concerned about "responsibility", I am wondering what kind of standards are you holding your leaders and politicians to.

    The same politicians who have proven utterly incapable of managing an economic collapse in the making for at least a few years. In fact, they only hastened it and yet you either cheer or turn a blind eye.

    If you are concerned about "responsibility", you would join the protest and ask those politicians you adore to be responsible and leave a government they have proven to be useless and/or incompetent in.

    Instead you are asking a legitimate protest movement to join them in the government. Let's be serious here.
     
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