Why do Arabs oppose Zionism?

Due South

Due South

New Member
yeah right, in those countries the jewish population is also 20% - like here in Israel the muslim population is . . .
On Fox News

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RjnvQHWyLE[/YOUTUBE]
 
  • Advertisement
  • Due South

    Due South

    New Member
    I always ask myself the question why are the Arabs the enemies of Israel and why do the Arabs deny Israel the right to exist as a state in which the Jews can call Jerusalem as their capital in the Middle East?

    I would like to hear your comments, while taking into account the current discourses that run through out the region by religious groups who are demanding religious political rights, such as Christians, Sunnies and Shi’as who seemingly believe that they can have a political status because of an ethnicity that is founded on religion. They however deny the same rights to the Jews in Jerusalem.

    Why do Arabs oppose Zionism, when they claim political rights that are founded on their various religious affiliations?

    Why is Zionism perceived as an evil when Arabism and Islamism is not?

    Why are the Zionists who grant Muslims the freedom to practice their religion are perceived to be an evil, when the Saudi Islamism that denies all religious groups the right to freely practice their belief and faith is not considered to be an evil, if anything Saudi Islamism it is a promoted good?
    If I invaded your country "Canada" with jets and tanks and brought with me millions of Muslims in order to kick you out of your OWN home and make YOUR place our place because long time ago thousands of years in a book it said that Canada belong to Muslims..... and I gave you 2 choices:

    To be my slave and follow my rules with no rights whatsoever or you will be killed.

    How would you react?
     
    Free_Patriot

    Free_Patriot

    Active Member
    If I invaded your country "Canada" with jets and tanks and brought with me millions of Muslims in order to kick you out of your OWN home and make YOUR place our place because long time ago thousands of years in a book it said that Canada belong to Muslims..... and I gave you 2 choices:

    To be my slave and follow my rules with no rights whatsoever or you will be killed.

    How would you react?
    No needs for tanks and jets, Canada's muslims will reach one million soon and they'll be welcome as equal citizens. If only Islamists and Zionists could have a similar generosity and tolerance, a lot of hatred and blood would have been saved.
     
    Due South

    Due South

    New Member
    I always ask myself the question why are the Arabs the enemies of Israel and why do the Arabs deny Israel the right to exist as a state in which the Jews can call Jerusalem as their capital in the Middle East?

    I would like to hear your comments, while taking into account the current discourses that run through out the region by religious groups who are demanding religious political rights, such as Christians, Sunnies and Shi’as who seemingly believe that they can have a political status because of an ethnicity that is founded on religion. They however deny the same rights to the Jews in Jerusalem.

    Why do Arabs oppose Zionism, when they claim political rights that are founded on their various religious affiliations?

    Why is Zionism perceived as an evil when Arabism and Islamism is not?

    Why are the Zionists who grant Muslims the freedom to practice their religion are perceived to be an evil, when the Saudi Islamism that denies all religious groups the right to freely practice their belief and faith is not considered to be an evil, if anything Saudi Islamism it is a promoted good?
    Jews protesting in Montreal Canada against their Zionists

    http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/protests/MontrealApril2805.cfm
     
    Due South

    Due South

    New Member
    No needs for tanks and jets, Canada's muslims will reach one million soon and they'll be welcome as equal citizens. If only Islamists and Zionists could have a similar generosity and tolerance, a lot of hatred and blood would have been saved.

    You CANNT make such comparaison. Canada is the 2nd largest country in the world after Russia. Canada NEEDS immigrants that's why Canada has many Immigration programs and its welcoming new commers from everywhere.

    In the Middle East its not the same. Palestine and Lebanon are VERY small countries comparing to Canada and we dont need immigrants there. We are already crowded. Lebanon CANNOT absorbe Palestinian refugees who were kicked out of their homeland by Israelis/Zionists and imposed on Lebanese people by force.

    Israel is encouraging and making it easy for European Jews who already have a life in Europe to leave Europe and to immigrate to Israel while Palestinian refugees in Lebanon are not allowed to go back and live with their relatives in Palestine.
     
    Mighty Goat

    Mighty Goat

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    If I invaded your country "Canada" with jets and tanks and brought with me millions of Muslims in order to kick you out of your OWN home and make YOUR place our place because long time ago thousands of years in a book it said that Canada belong to Muslims..... and I gave you 2 choices:

    To be my slave and follow my rules with no rights whatsoever or you will be killed.

    How would you react?
    This is an exaggeration to what actually happened; because what actually happened was that the Ottoman Empire was divided into states, and because the British and the French occupied the territories that belonged to the Ottoman Empire. The League of Nations created states, one of which is Lebanon. Later on and to the South of Lebanon the solution by the United Nations was to create two states, one Arab and one Jewish. The Jews accepted that solution and the Arabs wanted to take the whole territory by denying the Jews a right to build a state that is ruled by Jews as the Jews did not want to be ruled by the Arabs.

    The Jews and Judaism are not European, they do not come from Europe and in Europe the Jews were stateless people that were categorizes as colonists. They had no nationalities, because according to the Europeans the Jews are not native to Europe but are native to the Middle East. This was the real problem. For the Jews the choices were simple the gas chamber or a Jewish state.


    No one said that the Arabs should be slaves to the Jews, or that the Jews should be slaves to the Arabs. The idea is that the Jews are different from the Arabs, and both cannot live together in one state under the laws of the majority, and the majority in this case was Muslim. The Jews wanted to be in a state where they are a majority so that they could not be denied rights by the whims of a religious majority.

    Just look at Lebanon it lives in continuous sectarian war because the Muslims cannot live with the Christians, the Sunnis hate the Shi’a, and the list goes on. In the Middle East, and unlike Canada, religion rules and a religious majority can destroy a religious minority and deny this minority rights and freedoms.

    This is not the case in Canada. In Canada, people find peaceful means for cohabiting and people live under the rule of law and not some rabbi, clerk, or a priest. These religious figures have no say in the daily political life and in the decisions of the government of Canada. Then the problem in the Middle East is that, because religion and politics are so interrelated people think of themselves in terms of Jew, Muslim, and Christian, and not in terms of Lebanese, Israeli, and Palestinian regardless to the religion of the individual. People in the Middle East ask for Jews rights, Christian rights, and Muslim rights. In Canada, people think in terms of human rights. Big difference I think.
     
    Rafidi

    Rafidi

    Legendary Member
    Yea right, I guess you say this as an israeli right???
    You know what? ask some israeli arabs if what you say is true...and no, don't come now with this little stories of racism in israel,
    this stories exist in any other country in the world including Lebanon, which is much more racists than israel, it behave to the Palestinians like animals and do not give them citizenship, while israel do.
    this is very much deceitful.lebanon doesnt give the palestinian refugees citizenship because its neither in the interest of lebanon nor the palestinians.the palestinians have a homeland they aspire to return to.i said this is deceitful because you are comparing lebanon that refuses to give citizenship to refugees with "israel",an alien entity,giving citizenship in a land to the owners of the land.

    to also answer achaaban,zionism is opposed not simply because its a jewish political movement.had the jews in palestine,rallied political and wanted independence,that would have been just like the kurds in iraq and chechans in russia.that is an ethnic cultural rather than a worldwide movement for religious independence.the saudis and iranians are overwhelmingly muslims.and both adopted the islamic govt.they are different because in iran for instance,its not a country for shias from all over the world.am shia but i dont have the right to iranian citizenship because of my faith.i hope you seethe difference.
     
    Andurz

    Andurz

    Active Member
    that wasn't the plan. it were the demonstrations of violence that made them to decide they needed a separate state. besides, there was NO formal country here after the Ottoman Empire ended its control over the middle east. Jordan got declared, so would Israel be declared... with all the people in it, but, that was not what 'some' agreed to, and that's a pity.
    the plan of making separate states was produced by zionism and supported by the british, even though that would displace so many people. this entire situation is perhaps the result of foreign colonialism on the part of britain and by israel. would you protest if you were faced with displacement? Jordan wasn't carved up, it simply got borders, and nobody had to move.
     
    Rafidi

    Rafidi

    Legendary Member
    i think you should re-read what zionism is and how you defined it.in zionism,as long as you are a jew,regardless whether your skin is black,red or blue,you must return to jerusalem.imagine,if there is a muslims country or a muslim state that give the right to muslims all over the world giving up their respective and distinct nationalities to settle in a so called muslim state.how would the world react?its different when a tribe or ethnic group or nation is arab and its predominant faith is islam and are spread all over the world with different nationalities.

    Then the question is why are the Israeli Jews denied a right to establish a capital called Jerusalem and based on their historical ties to Jerusalem, when The Saudi Wahabies have taken control of Mecca, and assumed the position of the custodians of Mecca.

    In Saudi Arabia, Christians and Jews are denied the right of passage to Mecca. That is they are prohibited from visiting Mecca by law. In Israel, the three religions historic ties to Jerusalem are recognized, since the Muslims have all the right to worship and pray in their mosques as freely as they can.
    the saudi wahhabis are not the custodians of mecca because they are what you called them.these people have always been there and have never left that land and settled somewhere else;after which their descendants want to return like the jews.and in mecca and medina,there is only one religion,which islam.in jerusalem,its people belong to different religions.the question is why cleanse all the others in favor of only one to reign?you can only compare mecca to jerusalem,if in mecca there exist indigines that are of other religions and the muslims are depriving them of their right.had jerusalem being like mecca,with only the jewish faith,and i as a muslim,am not allowed to go to jerusalem,i would have no complaint.

    also,jerusalem is held high and respected by muslims because its the only second to mecca and medina in holiness.thats not the case of mecca and medina to the jews.

    In Saudi Arabia, those who do not adhere to the Sunni-Doctrine of Islam are denied the right to work in public office, this category includes the Shi’a. Saudi Arabia is an extremist exclusivist concept of government that adheres to a rigid dogma that it calls government, where the King can kill any one and as he wishes. It is a lawless society run by the whims of the king, who claims to be the custodian of the holy places.

    Then the facts attest that it is the Muslims and not the Jews who are exclusivists, and restrictive about who can have the freedom to practice their religion within their territories.
    This has nothing to do with zionism.its not comparable because there is a dictatorship in saudi arabia.but in palestine there is an illegal entity.the saudi entity is not illegal.its methods carried out by the govt. are illegal.in palestine its both the entity that exists and its methods that are illegal.because there is separation in muslim countries or there is rascism does not vindicate the methods of the israeli govt. neither does it vindicate the illegal entity and zionism which brought it to power/existence.the saudi entity didnt come to exist with the principle of importing people that share the same beliefs from foreign countries and nationalities like the entity of "israel".

    The Palestinians, who are similar to the Saudis claim that Jerusalem is Muslim and Arab, and that the Jews have no right to establish anything in Jerusalem!
    i have never heard that.maybe you can provide us with a source.as much as i know,there are christian palestinians who live in bethlehem and other places.and their right og belief is guaranteed even under hamas.

    So, what do Arabs and Sunnies have in Jerusalem that makes them claim a right in there that the Jews do not have.
    the arab identity in jerusalem came about mainly through assimilation and conversion and not through a stampede/invasion of outsiders and the bulldozing of houses through the belief of an eternal stamp giving jews the right to jerusalem.many families today in jerusalem both christian and muslims that recognize themselves as arab,have their ancestral root from that city.

    Do the Arabs want to turn Jerusalem into another Mecca, where a king plays God on Earth and decides who can worship God or how?
    if you are a bit confused,that can be taken into consideration.but try to limti ignorance in a square with four walls.the king of saudi arabia is by no how a muslim religious authority even to saudis.he is a dictator because of his political power and not because of any religious beliefs.that by no how suggest that when jerusalem is freed a palestinian king would reign over it.so i dont know from which angle you are forming such assumptions.
     
    Rafidi

    Rafidi

    Legendary Member
    Iran is not the same as Saudi Arabia, In Iran there are Jews and they have rights in the state. Can you show me the Jews of Medina, where are they do you think?
    we dont know.a number of jews did peacefully converted to islam because they were convinced.mecca and medina is not a homeland to jews.the jews did come from somewhere else.because of their political manipulations,they were fought against by the prophet of islam himself.that still doesnt mean they were told to leave because the muslims from somewhere else-another country/nation-want to take their place as is the case in palestine with the jews doing.it was more or less a civil war if you like.even if that led to the displacement of jews or the jews decided to leave,that is still not comparable to zionism.those muslims didnt come from all over the world to replace the jews.the event that brought "israel" into being is unique in the history of hmanity,in that it imports people cultural different to settle somewhere else because of religious affiliation.

    Let us be realistic, in Israel there are a lot on non Jewish dogs who are in government, they are Israelis and they are not Jews, they hold a place in government and they are existing. and are practicing their civil and political rights.
    we shouldn't mix the politcal flaws in any country with the illegitimacy of that entity's existence.in saudi its the regime thats bad.but in "israel" its the being thats illegal and have caused harm to people more than the flaws in governace.

    In Saudi, only one brand of Islam is recognized and that is the Sunnies and only the Sunnies who agree explicitly with the Salaf. Everyone else is an infidel. save Christians and Jews, who are propbably the lost on Earth.
    that is not news.shia and other sects are not recognized.even shia saudis.that still doesnt amount to the wahhabis importing foreign wahhabis from other parts of the world to replace shia saudis.thats simply religious discrimination.

    Can you give me the name of one Saudi Christian or Jew, actually if someone dares to convert in Saudi the King, has the right to behead him.
    abdul masih bin laden!lol!thats really funny.how can anyone have the names of all saudi citizens alive in the world and their religious affiliations?!

    In Saudi the King is Maleke Youm El Din. I think this comes in the first verse in the Koran describing God, but not in Saudi. In Saudi the King is God.
    you call yourself a shia,and you dont even know the difference between a quranic verse and a quranic chapter.that verse is in the first chapter of the quran.maliki yaumiddin means the master of the day of resurrection-Allah.
     
    Rafidi

    Rafidi

    Legendary Member
    3- It is the Muslims who live in Palestine who refuse to share this land with the Jews. In addition, the Muslims are copying Zionism to create a Jerusalem for the Arab Muslims in a copycat narrative from the Jewish Bible, by replacing David with Umar. .
    this particularly was directed to hanan ashrawi,member of the palestinian legistaltive council (correct me if am wrong),during a BBC interview.it was put forward in a manner that suggests that the arabs are foreigners in palestine.ashrawi replied saying that she is palestinian and arab and christian.her family has a 5000 years history in palestine!

    many of those who recognize themsleves as arab,be they christians or muslims,were assimilated and "arabized".thats not to say no purely arab man came from somewhere else.even that,those migrant never replaced the jews in the direct and raw manner zionism dictates.they migrated and settled together with others.migration is impossible to stop.what if the usa in a few years time becomes 60% latino,30% african and only 10% caucasian,does that mean tha caucasian have the right to create a movement to bring caucasians from ireland and scotland to regain dominance in the usa?
     
    Shangleesh

    Shangleesh

    New Member
    This is an exaggeration to what actually happened; because what actually happened was that the Ottoman Empire was divided into states, and because the British and the French occupied the territories that belonged to the Ottoman Empire. The League of Nations created states, one of which is Lebanon. Later on and to the South of Lebanon the solution by the United Nations was to create two states, one Arab and one Jewish. The Jews accepted that solution and the Arabs wanted to take the whole territory by denying the Jews a right to build a state that is ruled by Jews as the Jews did not want to be ruled by the Arabs.
    The United Nations had no right to give Palestine to anybody. The Jews owned 6% of the land, these are native Jews who always lived there, how can the UN just divide the country 50-50, how can Jewish ownership go from 6% to 50%, this is called theft and anybody who accepts this so-called rotten deal (more like a swindle) is an idiot.

    The Arabs didn't want to deny anybody anything, the Palestinians were being denied their rights, they fought off Ottoman rule and wanted to build a state but European powers decided to give half of their land to foriegn European zionist. They didn't fight off Ottoman rule to replace it with zionist rule, they didn't fight the ottomans to give half their land away to foriegn europeans.

    Achaaban answer this question, did the Jews who came to Palestine come from Europe or not, what gives them a right to build a state here, their religion?

    Also how much land did Jews actually own in Palestine before the UN gave them half the country?


    The Jews and Judaism are not European, they do not come from Europe and in Europe the Jews were stateless people that were categorizes as colonists. They had no nationalities, because according to the Europeans the Jews are not native to Europe but are native to the Middle East. This was the real problem. For the Jews the choices were simple the gas chamber or a Jewish state.
    The Jews were not stateless people,they had citizenship in their respective countries, they identified as Europeans, some as Russians, some as Germans, some as British, some as French, they were a major part in each of these societies.

    You make it seem we oppose a Jewish state because it is a Jewish state, i have said several times, let them have the biggest and richest and greatest state in the world but not on somebody elses territory.


    No one said that the Arabs should be slaves to the Jews, or that the Jews should be slaves to the Arabs. The idea is that the Jews are different from the Arabs, and both cannot live together in one state under the laws of the majority, and the majority in this case was Muslim. The Jews wanted to be in a state where they are a majority so that they could not be denied rights by the whims of a religious majority.
    Again the Jews should have a state where they are 99.99% of the citizenry but not on stolen land. The land they built their majority state on does not belong to them and that is why we oppose them.

    Just look at Lebanon it lives in continuous sectarian war because the Muslims cannot live with the Christians, the Sunnis hate the Shi’a, and the list goes on. In the Middle East, and unlike Canada, religion rules and a religious majority can destroy a religious minority and deny this minority rights and freedoms.
    Lebanon is in a continuous sectarian war because the Lebanese have an identity crisis and because this nation was created by the powers of Europe not by the majority of the native people.

    This is not the case in Canada. In Canada, people find peaceful means for cohabiting and people live under the rule of law and not some rabbi, clerk, or a priest. These religious figures have no say in the daily political life and in the decisions of the government of Canada. Then the problem in the Middle East is that, because religion and politics are so interrelated people think of themselves in terms of Jew, Muslim, and Christian, and not in terms of Lebanese, Israeli, and Palestinian regardless to the religion of the individual. People in the Middle East ask for Jews rights, Christian rights, and Muslim rights. In Canada, people think in terms of human rights. Big difference I think.
    I don't know why this turned into a Canada arguement, Due South was just giving an example of what the zionist did, replace Canada with any other country and the same thing applies, you cannot go to another persons country and forcefully build your state their and claim your holy book says it is your right. Due South gave a very good example, he didnt' claim Canada was not democratic or secular, he said what if he took over the country and built a state there, would that be ok?
     
    Shangleesh

    Shangleesh

    New Member
    1- who are the indigenous people of Palestine? I am sure they cannot be Arabs, I mean the indigenous people of that land, they call Palestine today.

    The indigenous people of Palestine today are the Palestinians who have always lived there whether they were Jews, Muslims or Christian or Pagans or Aethiest, these are the native people today.

    Your hypocrisy is what shocks me, you want to deny that the Palestinians who have always lived there are native to the land but a Jew who comes from Austria yesterday is indigenous, the absurdity is absurd.

    It doesn't matter if the Palestinians call themselves Arabs, Africans, Asians, if this is what they identify with it is their right.

    If we want to go by your claims that it cannot be Arabs than Lebanon can be stolen as well since the majority of the Lebanese identify as Arabs and Arabs can't be the indigenous people of this holy land that is mentioned in the bible. I guess the Lebanese should stop calling themselves Arabs if they don't want their country stolen.

    It doesn't matter what a native calls himself, he can call himself a martian, he is still native to this land and should build a state on the whole land, not some foriegn europeans who want to use judaism to justify colonialism.

    They have ruined the name of Judaism with their disgusting theft and expulsion and occupation and continued illegal existence, their state should be moved, the sooner the better.

    2- stop this they want to build a state over other people's land, because the state exists and it is the Israelis land today, this story is over and done with.
    They did build a state over another peoples land, tell me how much land did they own before 1947? Please answer this question.

    3- It is the Muslims who live in Palestine who refuse to share this land with the Jews. In addition, the Muslims are copying Zionism to create a Jerusalem for the Arab Muslims in a copycat narrative from the Jewish Bible, by replacing David with Umar.
    Jews owned land here and no Muslims kicked him out. The problem started when european zionist wanted to build their state on Palestinian Muslim, Jewish and Christian land.

    Go watch the video above that Due South posted, the Rabbi has documents by Palestinian Jews who did not want Israel to build a state there, they didn't trust these european zionist either, its like Saddam invading Kuwait and saying don't worry i am Muslim too, the Kuwaitis will say i don't care what your religion is, get your troops out of here.

    I don't know how you can say the Arabs are copying zionism, it doesn't make any sense, the Palestinians who always lived in Palestine wanted to build their state, it has nothing to do with religion, holy lands are not the only lands to be colonized, Africa, Asia, Latin America, the middle east were all lands colonized and occupied and the native people fought for independence, this is exactly the same as what the Palestinians are fighting for whether Jerusalem was there or not. Stop simplfying it into a religion arguement when it has nothing to do with religion, all people don't like to be occupied by foriegners.



    4- It is the Arab Muslims who want war, and it is the Arab Muslims who are promoting war at all times. Why can't the Arab Muslims accept the very fact that the Jews are back to the land where they ( the Jews) are the indigenous people, I think that they ( the Jews) were there before the Arabs settled in Jerusalem. Consequently, the Arabs cannot be indigenous to that land by any historical fact. Probably Greek Orthodox are more indigenous to that land than the Arab Muslims. Unless in your dictionary indigenous means something other than the first nation that settled in that land, these are not the Palestinian Arabs.
    Did the history of Palestine begin with Jewish people? Did they fall from the sky and land on this empty land. Even in their religious narratives they stole the land, Joshua came and slaughtered the native people and settled the land, the Jews are more native to Iraq than to Palestine if we want to talk history.

    You have to understand just because the Palestinians call themselves Arabs doesn't mean they came from Saudi Arabia and settled in Palestine, Arab has become an identity that means a commoness in language, culture, struggle (especially during the anti-colonialist struggle).

    You have black nations in Africa calling themselves Arabs and light-skin nations in the levant calling themselves Arabs, the Black Arabs do not come from Saudi Arabia and the Levant Arabs do not come from Saudi Arabia, they are indigenous to their land whatever they call themselves, Arab, African, or Asian.

    You seem to think that because somebody calls him or herself an Arab that means they are not native to their respective country, if that is the case than Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, Sudan can all be settled by foriegners becasue the Lebanese, Egyptian, Syrians and Sudanese who call themselves Arabs are not indigenous to their land.

    Are the Lebaense indigenous to Lebanon and why? How about Lebanese who identify as Arabs, should they be expelled, are they indigenous to Lebanon? Does calling yourself Arab automatically disqualify you from being indigenous, what should the Lebanese and Palestinians who don't really originate from Saudi Arabia call themselves, phoenician, caananite, or assyrian?

    Now i'm not saying no Lebanese or Palestinian or Egyptian or Syrian can't trace their background to Yeman or Saudi Arabia, i'm sure many can but the majority are indigenous to their lands and do not come from Saudi Arabia. What if a Lebanese or Palestinian or Egytpian or Syrian can trace their background to Saudi Arabia does that mean they are not Lebanese, Palestinian, Egyptian or Syrian anymore? Does it mean they should be able to settle in Saudi Arabia?

    Also you are wrong to say it is the Arab muslims who want war, every single Arab muslim state wants this issue to be over,they want to do business, make money, have good relations with America, they don't care about Palestine, the people fighting for Palestine are mainly the Palestinians, than the Lebanese are fighting Israel because of what they did to us and because we support Palestine.

    The countries i see fighting Israel are the countries occupied and bombed by Israel, i don't see the governments of Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Bahrain, Oman, Egypt and Jordan fighting Israel today, they all have relations with Israel or just don't want problems with Israel, so don't generalize on the Muslim Arabs because they may talk the talk (which they barely do anyway) but the Lebanese and Palestinians are walking the walk.
     
    Abu Ruman

    Abu Ruman

    Active Member
    "Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind." -Albert Einstein
     
    proIsrael-nonIsraeli

    proIsrael-nonIsraeli

    Legendary Member
    If I invaded your country "Canada" with jets and tanks and brought with me millions of Muslims in order to kick you out of your OWN home and make YOUR place our place because long time ago thousands of years in a book it said that Canada belong to Muslims..... and I gave you 2 choices:

    To be my slave and follow my rules with no rights whatsoever or you will be killed.

    How would you react?
    You example is incorrect.


    <i>"If I invaded your country "Canada" with jets and tanks"</i>

    Palestine was not taken by force.
    First of all there was no such thing as 'country' to begin with.
    Secondly, Zionists came to work the land and create the state using peaceful means. And it started long before Ottoman Empire fell.


    <i>"brought with me millions of Muslims in order to kick you out of your OWN home and make YOUR place our place"</i>

    Jews did not kick out Arabs in order to create state.
    Arabs who decided to stay in 1948 are still there and are Israeli citizens.
    Those Arabs who left on their own accord and decided to start a war have lost.
    No need to complain now.


    <i>"because long time ago thousands of years in a book it said that Canada belong to Muslims....."</i>

    Never mind the book, Zionism is (or was) secular movement. It is history that tells us that Israel and Judea (Greek name: Palestine) is ancient Jewish home.
    Jews do not say "Israel belongs to Jews". Jews say "Israel is Jewish state". While former is chauvinistic statement, latter is political.
    There are great many countries, which are based on nationality and/or religion. Actually majority are.
    Israel does not forbid anybody practice different faith or none at all.


    <i>"and I gave you 2 choices:

    To be my slave and follow my rules with no rights whatsoever or you will be killed."</i>

    I never heard of Jews imposing this choice on Palestinian Arabs.
    If Arabs would've accepted partition of Palestine in 1948 there would not be problems ME is having today.


    <i>"How would you react?"</i>

    I do not mind you reacting violently.
    You have right to do whatever you see fit and proper.
    I mind you get hit back and complain about it like it is not your fault.


    PS. "you" does not actually mean you personally. Just a figure of speech.
     
    Mighty Goat

    Mighty Goat

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Shangleesh,

    Please note that I am not defending either the Jews or the Palestinians in this thread. I am merely bringing about the issues on both sides of the debate and I personally think that arguments that resort to conceptions of colonialism, and indigenous people’s rights, do not hold water. This is because the main argument related to the Palestinians can only be focused on the very fact that only the Palestinians in this world do not have an internationally recognized state. There should be no justifications that resort to who is indigenous and who is not, which will justify a right to the Palestinians to have a state or not.

    The simple fact is that the Palestinians do not have a state that is internationally recognized. This is the only starting point to this problem. The international community should recognize a Palestinian state and regardless to whether the Palestinians were indigenous or settlers to that land.

    This thread however, is not about the Palestinian state, or the Palestinians right to a state, which is de facto a problem that requires an international solution and the solution, is merely that the United Nations first recognizes a Palestinian state with defined borders. This is not the case now.

    This thread is about religious ideologies that claim political rights by politicizing the holly scriptures and the hypocrisy lies in the claim that the Zionists have no religious rights to Jerusalem, when the Islamists do have a religious right to Jerusalem. Both claims Zionists and Islamists appeal on a religio-political history that makes a political claim based on religion.

    The point is we cannot claim a Muslim right ,and a Jewish right, and assume that one religious group has more rights that the other. That is if Zionism is an evil, then why Islamism is a promoted good, when both are just the same in principle.
     
    Shangleesh

    Shangleesh

    New Member
    Shangleesh,

    Please note that I am not defending either the Jews or the Palestinians in this thread. I am merely bringing about the issues on both sides of the debate and I personally think that arguments that resort to conceptions of colonialism, and indigenous people’s rights, do not hold water. This is because the main argument related to the Palestinians can only be focused on the very fact that only the Palestinians in this world do not have an internationally recognized state. There should be no justifications that resort to who is indigenous and who is not, which will justify a right to the Palestinians to have a state or not.
    Well you should be defending the oppressed and occupied and that is the Palestinian people and nation. What do you mean that arguments that speak of indigenous people do not hold weight, what are you talking about, please explain to me why it doesn't hold weight? Are you trying to say the Palestinians are not indigenous to this land?

    The simple fact is that the Palestinians do not have a state that is internationally recognized. This is the only starting point to this problem. The international community should recognize a Palestinian state and regardless to whether the Palestinians were indigenous or settlers to that land.
    The international community stole Palestine in the first place and gave it to ruthless European thugs who think because they are born a certain religion they have a right to settle in Palestine ignoring the fact that Palestine already has a people who were struggling for independence and are still struggling for independence because of the circumstances of the 20th century that was dumped on their backs.

    Israel is like an unwanted child (more like millions of unwanted children) that was dumped in front of a Palestinian church or doorstep and now the Palestinians have to deal with this big baby.


    This thread however, is not about the Palestinian state, or the Palestinians right to a state, which is de facto a problem that requires an international solution and the solution, is merely that the United Nations first recognizes a Palestinian state with defined borders. This is not the case now.
    The UN needs to recognize a Palestinian state and help move the zionist state so the Palestinians can build their state on their land and not the left over land. We don't want a slice of our pie we want control of our kitchen.


    This thread is about religious ideologies that claim political rights by politicizing the holly scriptures and the hypocrisy lies in the claim that the Zionists have no religious rights to Jerusalem, when the Islamists do have a religious right to Jerusalem. Both claims Zionists and Islamists appeal on a religio-political history that makes a political claim based on religion.
    This thread is really about the evil Arabs and Muslims and how they are hypocrites and evil and love blood and war and want to kill everybody and should not talk about Jerusalem and how they are undemocratic and stupid and backwards and should not speak out against Zionism.

    No Muslim or Arab said JEWS don't have a religious right to Jerusalem, but zionist is a different story.

    It is the Muslims and Arabs that helped rebuild Jerusalem and Jewish temples after the crusaders ransacked the city.

    The Muslims showed too much compassion to their Jewish brethren and helped reestablish Jewish rights to Jerusalem when they could have easily wiped out any trace of Jewish history in Palestine but they chose not to because this land is holy to them and the Muslims and Arabs knew this and respected Judaism and its rights to Palestine but they did not support some mass scale theft of the land and expulsion of the native people.

    The point is we cannot claim a Muslim right ,and a Jewish right, and assume that one religious group has more rights that the other. That is if Zionism is an evil, then why Islamism is a promoted good, when both are just the same in principle.
    Nobody is claimig a muslim right, we are claiming a Palestinian right, the Palestinians are muslim and christian, the christian Palestinians has the same rights to Palestine as the Muslim Palestinian. They are not sectarian like the Lebanese are, the Muslim and Christian Palestinians are united and recognize themselves as one people and have fought one struggle for the liberation of their land.

    You want to compare zionism to Islamism but i dont' see islamist saying they need to take over the whole country and kick out the native people, tell me which islamist have kicked out hundreds of thousands of Palestinians and built their state their and said any Muslim in the world can come settle in Palestine?

    The muslims say Palestine is a holy land but they don't say any Muslim in the world should have the right to settle there or build a state there against the wishes of the native Palestinians whether they be Jewish, Muslims or Christian.

    Your comparison doesn't hold weight one bit. You seem to think that because Muslims say Palestine is holy to them that is is compared to zionism which has displaced the native Palestinians.

    You can compare Islamism to Zionism if the Zionist stayed in their homes in Europe and said Palestine is a holy land to the Jews and visited the land and prayed at the wall and did a pilgrimage like Muslims do in Mecca.

    You don't take something that doesn't belong to you.

    Also why ignore everything i posted, please answer my earlier posts so we can understand each other more and so i can understand why you are so supportive of zionist claims to Palestine.
     
    Shangleesh

    Shangleesh

    New Member
    Palestine was not taken by force.
    First of all there was no such thing as 'country' to begin with.
    Secondly, Zionists came to work the land and create the state using peaceful means. And it started long before Ottoman Empire fell.
    Of course it was taken by force, a people lived here already.

    How much land did the Jews own in 1947?


    Jews did not kick out Arabs in order to create state.
    Arabs who decided to stay in 1948 are still there and are Israeli citizens.
    Those Arabs who left on their own accord and decided to start a war have lost.
    No need to complain now.

    The Arabs did not start a war, it was the European colonialist who started a war by declaring their state on Palestinian land.

    Never mind the book, Zionism is (or was) secular movement. It is history that tells us that Israel and Judea (Greek name: Palestine) is ancient Jewish home.
    Jews do not say "Israel belongs to Jews". Jews say "Israel is Jewish state". While former is chauvinistic statement, latter is political.
    There are great many countries, which are based on nationality and/or religion. Actually majority are.
    Israel does not forbid anybody practice different faith or none at all.
    If Israel says that Israel is a Jewish state and does not belong to Jews than why are only Jews allowed to go to Israel, why not Arab christians and muslims who are also Israeli citizens, shouldn't they have a right to bring in their people as well?


    I never heard of Jews imposing this choice on Palestinian Arabs.
    If Arabs would've accepted partition of Palestine in 1948 there would not be problems ME is having today.
    Why should the Palestinians accept giving 44% of their land to a foriegn people?


    You say there was no state in the first place, that is a convenient way to justify theft and murder. States are a recent thing in human history, if a people live on a land and have always lived on a land, nobody has a right to kick them out or steal their land because they don't have the same form of system or gov't like you do, it is their land whether there was a state or not.

    I like how you think like a conquistador from the 1500's, you went to what is called America today and tell the natives to show their deeds to their land like they would have a similar system to the Europeans and than if they don't have a deed that means you have a right to take it and kicked them out.

    You are stuck in the 1500's, the barbaric European days of mass genocide, rape, murder and theft and Israel was established in this fashion.

    The difference is the natives this time will be victorious and not be forgotten about like our native American brothers and sisters.

    We will make life hell for the zionist until they or their kids decide to leave. Don't blame us, they shouldn't have been here in the first place.
     
    Shangleesh

    Shangleesh

    New Member
    and still, eventhough it was such a small stretch of land they owned they were attacked for it....

    doesn't that ever make you wonder?
    When were they attacked for it?

    You think the Palestinians couldn't have kicked out every single Jew in Palestine and take their land if they wanted to?

    You really need to study the history of "your" people. Go read about the Jews who lived in Palestine before the zionist arrived.
     
    Top