Why do Arabs oppose Zionism?

A

arbre

Active Member
LOL, What is the problem in putting Germans, Polish and French in the same line? Be more specific...
When you write about WWII, the punishment for Jews etc. putting my nation and those two is unfair, we had no Hitler nor Vichy.
 
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  • alon

    alon

    Active Member
    When you write about WWII, the punishment for Jews etc. putting my nation and those two is unfair, we had no Hitler nor Vichy.

    You are right I guess, even with the anti-semtism there was no officail bruatl policy against the jews...So I take the polish words back.
     
    A

    arbre

    Active Member
    Do not kid yourself.

    http://www.holocaustsurvivors.org/data.show.php?di=record&da=encyclopedia&ke=107

    It does not look like Poles needed Hitler or Vichy. They could hold their own very well.
    excuse me? you dare to compare antisemitic incidents to Hitler or Vichy?

    There was antisemitism, of course, but in which european country there was not at the time? have you read this: "A majority of the Righteous Gentiles honored at Yad Vashem are Poles".
    But they do not say there that occupied Poland was the only country where there was a death punishment for helping Jews! And still, there majority of honoured in Yad Vashem are Poles. My uncle is one of them and im proud of him; he was a priest btw
     
    proIsrael-nonIsraeli

    proIsrael-nonIsraeli

    Legendary Member
    excuse me? you dare to compare antisemitic incidents to Hitler or Vichy?

    There was antisemitism, of course, but in which european country there was not at the time? have you read this: "A majority of the Righteous Gentiles honored at Yad Vashem are Poles".
    But they do not say there that occupied Poland was the only country where there was a death punishment for helping Jews! And still, there majority of honoured in Yad Vashem are Poles. My uncle is one of them and im proud of him; he was a priest btw
    I am sure you are not this kind of person. May be today's Poland is not as anti-semitic as it once was (which I personally doubt) but we were talking about earlier time.

    Just because all countries are not mentioned does not mean Poland does not feet the bill. It is easier to list countries comprising exception than comprising rule.

    Yes, I am aware of the fact that there were decent people in Poland. I even heard of one catholic priest helping Jews during the WWII who later became very famous. Great thanks to all these humanitarians including your grandfather. But never ever think of it or present it as mainstream. Those people were your pride. Unfortunately they were few and far between.
     
    proIsrael-nonIsraeli

    proIsrael-nonIsraeli

    Legendary Member
    Shangleesh says:

    <i>"So don't you think it is absurd that anybody who converts to Judaism can go and apply for citizenship of Israel when Palestinians are not able to return to their homes?"</i>

    Absurd, you say? I do not see it this way. Jews are building Jewish state so they could have place to live in peace. And they are building it in their ancient land. What is wrong or absurd about that?
    Arabs of Palestine did not have to leave their homes had they chosen to be friends with Jews and not sworn enemies. In fact those who decided to stay are much better off in Israel than anywhere else in the ME.


    <i>"What gives a foreign person the right to settle in Palestine, their religion? Because somebody was born or converted to Judaism they should automatically be allowed to be citizens on a land that doesn't belong to them?"</i>

    You just answered that. "Because somebody was born or converted to Judaism they should automatically be allowed to be citizens on a land that <s>doesn't belong</s> belongs to them".
    It does not preclude others coming to Israel and living as equal with the rest. Obtaining citizenship may not be as straight forward as for Jews but those are the rules of the game.
    At very least refugees and immigrants of all kinds are not treated like unter-mensh. Not like in some other places I know.


    <i>"Israel is the only country in the world that grants citizenship based on religion, that is why it is a sectarian country and not secular at all and discriminates against its muslim and christian citizens who are not able to bring their co-religionist to become citizens of Israel."</i>

    I never heard Israel or any Israeli in particular claiming that Israel is secular country. So I agree.
    Sectarian? Which country is not? Is USA not sectarian? Important part is not that but rather how sects coexist and whether members of those sects
    put first interests of their state or interests of their sect.
    Discriminate? If you happened to be on Israeli territory (Jew or not) and you feel you were discriminated against you can fight it in court
    and if your allegations will prove to be true guilty will be punished to full extent of the law.
    Otherwise each and every country in the World has right to allow or not to allow people in and this is nobody else's business.


    <i>"So a christian man cannot become an Israeli citizen but if he converts than he can, what is the difference, this man is the same man whether his religion was christian or Jewish, he is still from whatever country he comes from and has no right to settle in Palestine."</i>

    If Christian or Muslim or Jew or anybody else was born in Israel this person is Israeli citizen. No discrimination there.


    <i>"Saying that only Jews can become citizens is like America saying only white people can become citizens. This is called discrimination."</i>

    I am not sure Israel is saying that only incoming Jews can become citizen but I am certain Jews are granted special dispensation in this matter. So, I guess in this sense Israeli law is discriminative to favor Jews. (Wow! "discrimination to favor Jews". I admit, it is very unusual. World is not accustomed to that. Where are we all heading!)


    <i>"How about somebody who was Jewish but converted (forcefully or voluntarilly) to another religion, isn't that person still Jewish if Jews are a people and not solely a religion?"</i>

    Israeli resident will stay Israeli resident. As to Jewish-ness itself, it is up to that person only.


    <i>"Another question, what if a woman converts to Judaism and is accepted does that make her kids Jewish?"</i>

    Do you mean children born before or after? This one is difficult for me to answer. I'd rather some Jewish religious scholar answer that.
    To my understanding her children will become part of Jewish tradition at very least (do you know many Christian/Muslim children not doing what their mother tells them to do?).
    Those children may decide not to be Jewish when they grow up but until then they will be Jewish.


    <i>"It doesn't make sense if she was a gentile who converted, her DNA is the same, it didn't magically change when she converted, why would she or her kids be considered Jewish if they really aren't?"</i>

    Again, due to lock of knowledge I cannot comment on it properly. I can only explain how I understand it:
    If I remember correctly Jews are called people of the book and they became such millennia ago based on their ethnic background.
    Also, they were told to encourage people to become believers. So, here you have those who still belong to that nation and those who converted.
    Either way those people believe they are Jews and this is good enough for me.


    <i>"The sad thing is that the Palestinians would have more rights to their land if they all converted to Judaism than they do now, even though they are the same people, with the same history and with the same DNA but because they converted to the Jewish faith than they can become citizens of Israel."</i>

    Sad thing is that Palestinians had (and still do) chosen war instead of peace.
    Of cause they were pushed into it by their Arab/Muslim brother but they've done it never the less.
    Jews do not force conversion because it is meaningless. All those Palestinian Christians and Muslims can stay who they are or convert
    to Judaism or any other religion or none if they wish.
    Their problem is their bigotry. Not their religious beliefs.
     
    tsedek

    tsedek

    Active Member
    So don't you think it is absurd that anybody who converts to Judaism can go and apply for citizenship of Israel when Palestinians are not able to return to their homes?

    What gives a foreign person the right to settle in Palestine, their religion? Because somebody was born or converted to Judaism they should automatically be allowed to be citizens on a land that doesn't belong to them?

    Israel is the only country in the world that grants citizenship based on religion, that is why it is a sectarian country and not secular at all and discriminates against its muslim and christian citizens who are not able to bring their co-religionist to become citizens of Israel.

    So a christian man cannot become an Israeli citizen but if he converts than he can, what is the difference, this man is the same man whether his religion was christian or Jewish, he is still from whatever country he comes from and has no right to settle in Palestine.

    Saying that only Jews can become citizens is like America saying only white people can become citizens. This is called discrimination.

    How about somebody who was Jewish but converted (forcefully or voluntarilly) to another religion, isn't that person still Jewish if Jews are a people and not solely a religion?

    Another question, what if a woman converts to Judaism and is accepted does that make her kids Jewish?

    It doesn't make sense if she was a gentile who converted, her DNA is the same, it didn't magically change when she converted, why would she or her kids be considered Jewish if they really aren't?

    The sad thing is that the Palestinians would have more rights to their land if they all converted to Judaism than they do now, even though they are the same people, with the same history and with the same DNA but because they converted to the Jewish faith than they can become citizens of Israel.


    That's the beauty in Judaism: there is no racism. Everybody can become a jew -
    Yes, the children of a woman that has converted are jewish as well. it has been said here already several times, but you can be jewish by birth or by religion (and both) -
     
    Shangleesh

    Shangleesh

    New Member
    That's the beauty in Judaism: there is no racism. Everybody can become a jew -
    Yes, the children of a woman that has converted are jewish as well. it has been said here already several times, but you can be jewish by birth or by religion (and both) -
    So you don't see how this contradicts that notion that Jews are a people?

    If you say they are a religion than this conversion issue makes sense but if Jews are a nation or an ethnicity than how can a chinese person, a nigerian, an arab, a frenchmen convert to Judaism and be considered Jewish all of the sudden, they are still chinese, nigerian, arab, and french, their DNA didn't change, why should they have a right to settle in Palestine, why should they get citizenship? It is because their religion is Jewish not becuase their ethnicity is Jewish.

    Also don't you find it discriminatory that only Jews or converts to Judaism only are allowed to become citizens of Israel, why not christians or muslims?

    I hope you understand how Palestinians feel when just anybody anywhere around the world who is Jewish or converts to Judaism can come settle in their country.
     
    fidelio

    fidelio

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    That's the beauty in Judaism: there is no racism. Everybody can become a jew -
    Yes, the children of a woman that has converted are jewish as well. it has been said here already several times, but you can be jewish by birth or by religion (and both) -
    Doesn't this apply to all religions?
    Besides, i remember in the late 90's Poland had racism problems between christians and jews, something about crosses in Auschwitz.
    Tse, every community that shares a common bond, from skin color to religion, tends to develop a kind of rejection to the "other" that doesn't share that bond with them and want to live in that same community, it's natural. He'll be "the intruder".
    in Israel, the jew state, a christian will feel like an intruder; in the Vatican, the Christian state, a muslim will feel like an intruder; in the hair club, a bald guy will be the outcast, that's a form of racism.
     
    E

    Eli (ISR)

    Active Member
    Another question, what if a woman converts to Judaism and is accepted does that make her kids Jewish?

    It doesn't make sense if she was a gentile who converted, her DNA is the same, it didn't magically change when she converted, why would she or her kids be considered Jewish if they really aren't?
    It has nothing to do with DNA.
    Traditionally, the mother educates the children, this why a child of a Jewish mother is considered Jewish.

    If you say they are a religion than this conversion issue makes sense but if Jews are a nation or an ethnicity than how can a chinese person, a nigerian, an arab, a frenchmen convert to Judaism and be considered Jewish all of the sudden, they are still chinese, nigerian, arab, and french, their DNA didn't change, why should they have a right to settle in Palestine, why should they get citizenship? It is because their religion is Jewish not becuase their ethnicity is Jewish.
    Nation and race are not the same thing.
    By the way, there is no real definition to a RACE in humans.
     
    fidelio

    fidelio

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    It has nothing to do with DNA.
    Traditionally, the mother educates the children, this why a child of a Jewish mother is considered Jewish.
    In all communities, the mother usually educates the child, this phenomenon only changed after the industrial revolution.
     
    tsedek

    tsedek

    Active Member
    So you don't see how this contradicts that notion that Jews are a people?

    If you say they are a religion than this conversion issue makes sense but if Jews are a nation or an ethnicity than how can a chinese person, a nigerian, an arab, a frenchmen convert to Judaism and be considered Jewish all of the sudden, they are still chinese, nigerian, arab, and french, their DNA didn't change, why should they have a right to settle in Palestine, why should they get citizenship? It is because their religion is Jewish not becuase their ethnicity is Jewish.

    Also don't you find it discriminatory that only Jews or converts to Judaism only are allowed to become citizens of Israel, why not christians or muslims?

    I hope you understand how Palestinians feel when just anybody anywhere around the world who is Jewish or converts to Judaism can come settle in their country.

    but why can't you just accept there are two causes that make someone jewish? there are for instance people with the surname 'cohen' that cannot marry a convert, cannot enter a cemetary etc. - and this is only descendants of the 'cohen' line, there are many, many more in where dna brings them back thousands of years ago. Together with that, anyone truly believing in the jewish faith can convert and 'belong' to the people. Why does this fact raise so much surprise in you?

    No, we just had 500 muslims settle in Israel, they came from Darfur.... There is a bit of a problem because the jewish community all over the world doesn't count more than about 15-16 million people and thus in order to keep the land a safe haven for jews it is difficult to let other people/religions in it so they won't be a majority and make this a non-jewish land. It is NOT about racism but about an international minority having the means of standing up for itself. And, yes - of course that brings about some controversial and in modern times even unacceptable measures. But why wouldn't jews be granted a home and can muslims have several countries (even according to their sub-diverse interpretation of the Islam - like sunni in saudia and shi'ite in iran) ? If now in Europe a huge anti-semitism wave comes into action.... there is an escape for all muslims - but if there is no israel, where would the jews go?
     
    tsedek

    tsedek

    Active Member
    Doesn't this apply to all religions?
    Besides, i remember in the late 90's Poland had racism problems between christians and jews, something about crosses in Auschwitz.
    Tse, every community that shares a common bond, from skin color to religion, tends to develop a kind of rejection to the "other" that doesn't share that bond with them and want to live in that same community, it's natural. He'll be "the intruder".
    in Israel, the jew state, a christian will feel like an intruder; in the Vatican, the Christian state, a muslim will feel like an intruder; in the hair club, a bald guy will be the outcast, that's a form of racism.
    well, racism is based on discrimination because of race. not religion, not hair and not eye color. discrimination is a general concept/principle - but racism really is something else :wink:
     
    Fragrance of Roses

    Fragrance of Roses

    Well-Known Member
    well, racism is based on discrimination because of race. not religion, not hair and not eye color. discrimination is a general concept/principle - but racism really is something else :wink:

    Racism can be based on hair and eye color because these are the indications of a certain race at times... it is not only a matter of skin color. It is a matter of "being physically different" at times.
     
    Mighty Goat

    Mighty Goat

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Great to see such a progress even though I despise the Emirates.

    Arab and Jewish astronauts to make history together on space mission
    September 25, 2019

    Arab and Jewish astronauts to make history together on space mission

    Astronauts (from L-R) Hazzaa Al Mansoori Oleg Skripochka, Jessica Meir. (Hazzaa AlMansoori /Twitter)



    Email Print 8 Comments


    He will be the first Arab to ever set foot on the International Space Station

    By World Israel News


    An Arab astronaut will be heading to the International Space Station along with a Jewish astronaut for the very first time.

    Hazzaa Al Mansoori from the United Arab Emirates will be joined by NASA astronaut Jessica Meir and Russian commander Oleg Skripochka on board a Soyuz MS 15 rocket from the Baikonur Cosmodrome in Kazakhstan.


    Meir, the daughter of an Iraqi-Israeli father, will be the fourth Jewish woman and the 15th Jew overall to be part of a space mission.

    Mansoori said that he is very excited to be the first Arab to ever set foot on the International Space Station.


    “It is really an honor and we are looking forward to [making] this mission successful and to come back with a lot of knowledge,” he said.

    Mansoori also discussed what will happen during the flight to the ISS.


    “We will be sitting in the Soyuz on top of the rocket for two hours in a very…tight position, and we will be launching for six hours, going to the ISS. It really needs a lot of patience, and we are ready for anything we will face,” he said.

    At a press conference at NASA’s Johnson Space Center in July, Mansoori said that he will be working on daily experiments and finding ways to connect with United Arab Emirates youth from orbit.

    Mansoori, 35, graduated from Khalifa bin Zayed Air College in Al Ain, United Arab Emirates, with a bachelor’s degree in aviation in 2004, and joined the UAE armed forces shortly afterward. He applied to the UAE space program in 2018 and beat out more than 4,000 candidates for the mission to the ISS.

    Both the Arab and Jewish astronauts will be bringing personal items with them for the trip. Mansoori will be bringing pictures of his family and the UAE flag, and Meir will be bringing an Israeli flag and a pair of socks with menorahs.
     
    Mighty Goat

    Mighty Goat

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Is there anybody else other than Israelis that you dont despise? ?
    Come one, these Emaraties are participating in bombing the hell out of Yemen with the Saudis, so despise it is.
     
    Mighty Goat

    Mighty Goat

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Well, has she been Israeli they I would've understood your joy.
    This is the concluding sentence of the article
    Both the Arab and Jewish astronauts will be bringing personal items with them for the trip. Mansoori will be bringing pictures of his family and the UAE flag, and Meir will be bringing an Israeli flag and a pair of socks with menorahs.
     
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