Why is pedophilia a mental disorder, but not homosexuality?

T

Thoma

New Member
No I didn't. Read again.



Sounds like sophistry.

I'm fine with pedophilia being a disorder in the DSM or not. The advantage of being in the DSM is that it allows sufferers to seek help and it also allows clinicians to tailor ways that can help such individuals. The DSM isn't a manual for condemnation.

What's undeniable is that pedopholoa violates consent and creates victims and thus will always be rightly prosecuted by the law. And thus it has no parallels with homosexuality.

Do you still not understand. If not I don't think I can help you. English lessons might.
Here's your quote: "The bottom point is that pedophilia involves sexual behavior with individuals who are unable to give consent, and that's the difference, a very, very, very, big one. ". This is you saying: the crucial point that differentiates homosexuality from pedophilia in terms of which of the two is to be (or not to be) considered a disorder is consent.

To which i replied that you haven't successfully answered the OP, because relying on consent alone to make that distinction or to determine which of the two is a disorder and which is not, is insufficient and fallacious, because consent itself doesn't contain within itself what (is required to) makes such distinction, and i offered a proof-of-point: 'One could consent on abusing a substance or on destructing themselves; by your fallacious reasoning (i.e. relying on consent alone), this behavior sh/couldn't be considered a disorder.' I'll also add conversely that consent in itself is not illimited or absolute; it being validly or rightly violated is a 'daily business' in any ideal society (parenting, cops, etc).

I'll also leave it to the readers to decide which is sophistry and which is not.
 
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  • AtheistForJesus

    AtheistForJesus

    Well-Known Member
    Seems like you have a horse to beat which is the "gay lobby".

    Homosexual men and women can make children. The world wouldn't disappear without heterosexuals. have you not heard of surrogacy?
    And that surrogate mother came to life thanks to a gay couple? LOL
    Surrogacy is a fertility treatment that simulates "heterosexual sex." They gather eggs from the mother and fertilize them with the man's sperm.
    Then the second gay man in the couple adopts the baby and pretends he's the mama, reducing the gestational mother to no more than a baby-producing machine.

    The first surrogate pregnancy took place in 1985.
    Imagine everyone was a homosexual 33 years ago. The world have disappeared.
    If humanity has managed to continue, it's because homosexuality is an exception and a deviation, not the norm.

    Homosexual men are just vagina-phobic. The bloody thing scares them.
    People with phobia of cats are encouraged to pet a cat to get over their phobia. Perhaps gay men should undergo a similar treatment.
     
    JorjeToTheWorld

    JorjeToTheWorld

    Legendary Member
    Here's your quote: "The bottom point is that pedophilia involves sexual behavior with individuals who are unable to give consent, and that's the difference, a very, very, very, big one. ". This is you saying: the crucial point that differentiates homosexuality from pedophilia in terms of which of the two is to be (or not to be) considered a disorder is consent.
    Yes, it is a very, very, very big difference. Where do you see "disorder" in the quote you posted. The original post made several points. Inno 3am tehbela? Even after I took time and explained to you what is exact the point, you still claim I'm saying something else? Ktir heyk.

    To which i replied that you haven't successfully answered the OP, because relying on consent alone to make that distinction or to determine which of the two is a disorder and which is not, is insufficient and fallacious because consent itself doesn't contain within itself what makes such distinction, and i've offered and proof-of-point for it: 'One could consent on abusing a substance or on destructing themselves; by your fallacious reasoning (i.e. relying on consent alone), this behavior sh/couldn't be considered disorder.' I'll also add conversely that consent in itself is not illimited or absolute; it being validly or rightly violated is a 'daily business' in any ideal society (parenting, cops, etc).

    I'll also leave it to the readers to decide which is sophistry and which is not.
    Yes your point about consent is a response you made to a fictional idea in your jead.

    Seems like you love to argue with yourself. ra7 iterkak bhal ne3me. lol. have fun.
     
    AtheistForJesus

    AtheistForJesus

    Well-Known Member
    Guys let's stick to the topic of discussion.
    This isn't an argument for criminalizing homosexuality.
    Whether mentally-ill or not, gays are consenting adults. What they do in their bedroom is their business.

    But based on what psychiatric evidence can we conclude that pedophilia is a disorder but not homosexuality?
    The fact homosexuality is consensual is not enough to make that distinction as @Thoma successfully argued above.
     
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    Libnene Qu7

    Libnene Qu7

    Super Ultra Senior Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Guys let's stick to the topic of discussion.
    This isn't an argument for criminalizing homosexuality.
    Whether mentally-ill or not, gays are consenting adults. What they do in their bedroom is their business.

    But based on what psychiatric evidence can we conclude that pedophilia is a disorder but not homosexuality?
    The fact homosexuality is consensual is not enough to make that distinction as @Thoma successfully argued above.
    Pedophilia is curable (hence a disease). Homosexuality is not curable because there is nothing to cure. And the way you and Thoma ignore consent is quite alarming. You should leave Islam (again), as it's making you barbaric (as it usually tends to do to otherwise mature and intelligent minds).
     
    I

    illusion84

    New Member
    Guys let's stick to the topic of discussion.
    This isn't an argument for criminalizing homosexuality.
    Whether mentally-ill or not, gays are consenting adults. What they do in their bedroom is their business.

    But based on what psychiatric evidence can we conclude that pedophilia is a disorder but not homosexuality?
    The fact homosexuality is consensual is not enough to make that distinction as @Thoma successfully argued above.
    I do not care if it is a disorder or not; anyone who touches children is a criminal and deserves life behind bar.
     
    AtheistForJesus

    AtheistForJesus

    Well-Known Member
    Pedophilia is curable (hence a disease). Homosexuality is not curable because there is nothing to cure. And the way you and Thoma ignore consent is quite alarming. You should leave Islam (again), as it's making you barbaric (as it usually tends to do to otherwise mature and intelligent minds).
    Please reread my initial post.
    Where did ignore consent?

    I said homosexuality should not be criminalized because it involves sex between consenting adults. How does that make me barbaric?

    However consent is not the criteria by which you judge whether a certain behavior is a disorder or not. Incestual relations can be consensual.

    You have a tendency to twist people's words to make a point.

    So far you've all failed to answer my question. You shouldn't look to nature for guidance. Animals engage in gang rape and cannibalism, and eat their own feces. No one would use such arguments to prove that eating your poop is natural.
     
    Indie

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Of course consent is everything. Maybe this is why your likes are ok with rape and unwanted sexual advances by men against women.
    I never thought I'd see you go this low in a debate.

    Way to miss his point.

    Actually, you probably did not miss it. You just couldn't handle the logic, so you pretended to miss it and replied with a vicious and fallacious ad hominem, instead.

    P.S. I was intent on not participating in this disgusting thread. Congratulations: your post is so mallicious that it compelled me to go back on that decision.
     
    Achilles

    Achilles

    Active Member
    Imagine everyone was a homosexual 33 years ago. The world have disappeared.
    If humanity has managed to continue, it's because homosexuality is an exception and a deviation, not the norm.
    Remaining single also is against the norm, imagine 33 years ago everyone becoming catholic priests, the world would have disappeared...

    Seriously, as someone already said “Consent” is the criteria. “Consent” is a legal term, and underage people are presumed lacking that consent.

    Btw why comparing peodophilia and homosexuality? Most pedophile behaviors are within a heterosexual frame. Usually within a family or among neighbors. A woman with an underage boy or a man with an underage girl are both heterosexual behaviors yet both are labeled as criminal offense.

    The world is going forward toward a full freedom of the human being as long as he doesn’t hurt someone else or force something on anyone. People are free to keep Middle Ages mentalities but it will not stop how thing are moving on worldwide.

    In 30-50 years no one will even think about opening such silly topic and make out of place comparaison.
     
    AtheistForJesus

    AtheistForJesus

    Well-Known Member
    Remaining single also is against the norm, imagine 33 years ago everyone becoming catholic priests, the world would have disappeared...

    Seriously, as someone already said “Consent” is the criteria. “Consent” is a legal term, and underage people are presumed lacking that consent.

    Btw why comparing peodophilia and homosexuality? Most pedophile behaviors are within a heterosexual frame. Usually within a family or among neighbors. A woman with an underage boy or a man with an underage girl are both heterosexual behaviors yet both are labeled as criminal offense.

    The world is going forward toward a full freedom of the human being as long as he doesn’t hurt someone else or force something on anyone. People are free to keep Middle Ages mentalities but it will not stop how thing are moving on worldwide.

    In 30-50 years no one will even think about opening such silly topic and make out of place comparaison.
    Another silly analogy...

    Refraining from a natural activity by choice does not make one mentally ill.
    Eating when hungry is the norm. Fasting for religious or dietary reasons choice does not indicate a disorder.

    It's when you stop eating due to a lack of appetite that you need to consult a doctor.

    As I previously stated, incestuous relations are consensual in most cases, but no one in his right mind would claim that people who aren't grossed out by the idea of having sex with their parents or siblings are "normal".

    I insist, homosexuality was delisted as a disorder out of pressure from the gay lobby, and not necessarily due to medical evidence.
     
    AtheistForJesus

    AtheistForJesus

    Well-Known Member
    I do not care if it is a disorder or not; anyone who touches children is a criminal and deserves life behind bar.
    That pedophilia is a mental disorder and a crime is something we all agree on.
    That's not what the thread is about.
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    Homosexuality is just as natural as heterosexuality. But one is more prevalent than the other. Being a minority does not mean unnatural.

    Homosexual behavior has been found in all animal species as well.
    why do we bother eradicating illiteracy when it is the natural state?
    the whole struggle of mankind is about rising above the raw natural state of things towards a better reality, no?
     
    lebnan_lilkel

    lebnan_lilkel

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    why do we bother eradicating illiteracy when it is the natural state?
    the whole struggle of mankind is about rising above the raw natural state of things towards a better reality, no?
    What is better is the whole debate ... Separating people who love each other is fruitless in a world that has millions of other more significant issues to worry about .
     
    AtheistForJesus

    AtheistForJesus

    Well-Known Member
    What is better is the whole debate ... Separating people who love each other is fruitless in a world that has millions of other more significant issues to worry about .
    No one is forcing gay couples to separate. They are not hurting anyone.
    We are simply debating whether homosexuality is a disorder or not.
    Shutting the door on research on the causes of homosexuality is unfair to future generations of homosexual who perhaps would like to seek treatment.

    The psychiatric body has used the "consensual" and "natural" arguments to declassified homosexuality as a disease.
    Now that they grew aware of this logical fallacy, they are trying to declassify pedophilia and incest as well.
     
    JorjeToTheWorld

    JorjeToTheWorld

    Legendary Member
    No one is forcing gay couples to separate. They are not hurting anyone.
    We are simply debating whether homosexuality is a disorder or not.
    Shutting the door on research on the causes of homosexuality is unfair to future generations of homosexual who perhaps would like to seek treatment.

    The psychiatric body has used the "consensual" and "natural" arguments to declassified homosexuality as a disease.
    Now that they grew aware of this logical fallacy, they are trying to declassify pedophilia and incest as well.
    So much nonsense in a single post.

    It seems like you're desperate for a cure. Please don't externalize your wishes on the gay community, leftists or psychiatry.

    It's really selfish to say the least to draw a comparison with pedophilia just so you can rationalize your choice for self hatred and for a cure.

    I think you need to look a deeper look at yourself.
     
    AtheistForJesus

    AtheistForJesus

    Well-Known Member
    So much nonsense in a single post.

    It seems like you're desperate for a cure. Please don't externalize your wishes on the gay community, leftists or psychiatry.

    It's really selfish to say the least to draw a comparison with pedophilia just so you can rationalize your choice for self hatred and for a cure.

    I think you need to look a deeper look at yourself.
    The problem with Leftists and liberals is that they hide behind science when it suits them, but become very spiritual and irrational when they're faced with the hard questions.
    You have not provided one single proof as to why homosexuality is not a mental disorder, compared to asexuality, incest, and pedophilia.

    All you did was parrot the same old tired arguments:
    1-It's consensual = so are incestuous relations.
    2-It happens in nature = so does eating poop.

    I'm not self-hating. I'm just brave enough to challenge conventional thought.
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    What is better is the whole debate ... Separating people who love each other is fruitless in a world that has millions of other more significant issues to worry about .
    people are free to do whatever they want, i am neither judging nor seeking to separate anyone. it is just the rationalization of the act that i do not like. existing in raw nature is simply not a valid argument.
     
    JorjeToTheWorld

    JorjeToTheWorld

    Legendary Member
    The problem with Leftists and liberals is that they hide behind science when it suits them, but become very spiritual and irrational when they're faced with the hard questions.
    You have not provided one single proof as to why homosexuality is not a mental disorder, compared to asexuality, incest, and pedophilia.

    All you did was parrot the same old tired arguments:
    1-It's consensual = so are incestuous relations.
    2-It happens in nature = so does eating poop.

    I'm not self-hating. I'm just brave enough to challenge conventional thought.
    No you're self hating and you are desperate for a cure. It's just below the thin line surface. All of your "arguments" stem from a search for a cure, if we can call thmlem that way.

    I already addressed the "disorder" nonsense. The concept is meaningless and subjective in the first place. The reason why it was considered a disorder at one point was due to Christian mores. The reason its not anymore is because society has a different set of values. Gay people are capable of leading perfectly happy and fulfilling lives; hence talking about homosexuality being a disorder is merely a question of values. There's nothing the least bit objective that makes homosexuality a disorder, certainly not your nonsense about reproductive organs which has been already rebutted.
     
    AtheistForJesus

    AtheistForJesus

    Well-Known Member
    No you're self hating and you are desperate for a cure. It's just below the thin line surface. All of your "arguments" stem from a search for a cure, if we can call thmlem that way.

    I already addressed the "disorder" nonsense. The concept is meaningless and subjective in the first place. The reason why it was considered a disorder at one point was due to Christian mores. The reason its not anymore is because society has a different set of values. Gay people are capable of leading perfectly happy and fulfilling lives; hence talking about homosexuality being a disorder is merely a question of values. There's nothing the least bit objective that makes homosexuality a disorder, certainly not your nonsense about reproductive organs which has been already rebutted.
    OK great. You're admitting that the decision to declassify homosexuality as a mental disorder was not rooted in science.
    Don't be surprised when incests try to justify their behavior as normal. They, too, aren't hurting anyone as long as they're using contraception.
     
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