Why is pedophilia a mental disorder, but not homosexuality?

JorjeToTheWorld

JorjeToTheWorld

Legendary Member
OK great. You're admitting that the decision to declassify homosexuality as a mental disorder was not rooted in science.
Don't be surprised when incests try to justify their behavior as normal. They, too, aren't hurting anyone as long as they're using contraception.
The crushing majority of incest occurs in context of abuse, and age of consent is not the only factor in abusive relationships. In the extremely rare occurence when it's not, I couldn't give a shit to classify it as a "disorder."

The whole point of the dsm is to help people not to condemn them with labels.

Quick, let's find another ridiculous left-field argument to call homosexuality a disorder so that we can all start looking for a cure and relieve manifesto from his accursed life. Maybe petting pussies will work ?????
 
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  • AtheistForJesus

    AtheistForJesus

    Well-Known Member
    The crushing majority of incest occurs in context of abuse, and age of consent is not the only factor in abusive relationships. In the extremely rare occurence when it's not, I couldn't give a shit to classify it as a "disorder."
    Brazil, France, and Spain, have no laws against consenting adults being together, even if that is a parent with an adult son or daughter.
    Does the fact incest is legal in some countries make it less of a mental disorder?
    Can an adult person who engages in sex with his mother or sister be called anything but "sick"?

    The whole point of the dsm is to help people not to condemn them with labels.
    Exactly. That was the whole reason psychiatrists woke up one day and decide to declassify homosexuality as a disorder.
    To relieve some of the stigma associated with being gay.
    It's not because they discovered a large body of evidence that backs their claims.
    Doctors are known for hiding medical facts that may lead to discrimination, such as findings related to race studies.

    It was a noble move but one that set a dangerous precedent. Now incests, pedophiles, and zoosexuals can also claim their behavior is a natural sexual orientation that's untreatable.
     
    R

    ruins

    Member
    Homosexuality is just as natural as heterosexuality. But one is more prevalent than the other. Being a minority does not mean unnatural.

    Homosexual behavior has been found in all animal species as well.
    Not interested in the debate itself, but I am not used to you making statements as the one bolded above. All animal species? Can you provide concrete scientific studies that show unequivocally the all part?
     
    I

    illusion84

    New Member
    Not interested in the debate itself, but I am not used to you making statements as the one bolded above. All animal species? Can you provide concrete scientific studies that show unequivocally the all part?
    male having sex with male; or female having sex with female is different than homosexuality.

    homosexuality is a way of life and it is purely a human behaviour.

    Animals in heat will mount each other regardless of the sex; in case of males it could also be an act of dominance (same is true for females in matriarchal species such as spotted hyenas)
     
    Libnene Qu7

    Libnene Qu7

    Super Ultra Senior Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Please reread my initial post.
    Where did ignore consent?

    I said homosexuality should not be criminalized because it involves sex between consenting adults. How does that make me barbaric?

    However consent is not the criteria by which you judge whether a certain behavior is a disorder or not. Incestual relations can be consensual.

    You have a tendency to twist people's words to make a point.

    So far you've all failed to answer my question. You shouldn't look to nature for guidance. Animals engage in gang rape and cannibalism, and eat their own feces. No one would use such arguments to prove that eating your poop is natural.
    Thoma willfully ignored consent and you agreed with him. Ignoring its importance makes me wonder about you a little bit.

    I also answered you that incest is curable, but homosexuality isn't.

    You're the one who twists words. I never said humans should imitate animals. I said that sexual behavior of humans can be found throughout nature.
     
    Libnene Qu7

    Libnene Qu7

    Super Ultra Senior Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    I never thought I'd see you go this low in a debate.

    Way to miss his point.

    Actually, you probably did not miss it. You just couldn't handle the logic, so you pretended to miss it and replied with a vicious and fallacious ad hominem, instead.

    P.S. I was intent on not participating in this disgusting thread. Congratulations: your post is so mallicious that it compelled me to go back on that decision.
    Don't get your knickers all tied up on my behalf, Ms. Drama Queen.

    So lack of consent really touched you... Interesting.
     
    Libnene Qu7

    Libnene Qu7

    Super Ultra Senior Member
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    why do we bother eradicating illiteracy when it is the natural state?
    the whole struggle of mankind is about rising above the raw natural state of things towards a better reality, no?
    Interesting you say that. On average homosexuals tend to be more talented, more tasteful, and more humane than the average heterosexual. Maybe the the progress you speak of should be taken up by the group that you weren't thinking of. :)
     
    Libnene Qu7

    Libnene Qu7

    Super Ultra Senior Member
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    Not interested in the debate itself, but I am not used to you making statements as the one bolded above. All animal species? Can you provide concrete scientific studies that show unequivocally the all part?
    Halla2 if not all then at least vast majority. Don't knit-pick on pedantry. You can find a zillion articles and a million books on this subject matter.
     
    R

    ruins

    Member
    Halla2 if not all then at least vast majority. Don't knit-pick on pedantry. You can find a zillion articles and a million books on this subject matter.
    I am discussing your specific claim. Thats the crux of the problem. You claim to advocate for preciseness and rational rigor then you throw in statements backed up by zero evidence. No, there arent a zillion articles or millions books. The handful of scientifically reliable sources on the matter discuss how it appears in some or more specifically a handful (not all, not the vast majority) of animal species. If you truly have seen millions of scientific sources that demonstrate the “all or vast majority” part of your statement, please produce just one source to educate the rest of us.
     
    Libnene Qu7

    Libnene Qu7

    Super Ultra Senior Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    I am discussing your specific claim. Thats the crux of the problem. You claim to advocate for preciseness and rational rigor then you throw in statements backed up by zero evidence. No, there arent a zillion articles or millions books. The handful of scientifically reliable sources on the matter discuss how it appears in some or more specifically a handful (not all, not the vast majority) of animal species. If you truly have seen millions of scientific sources that demonstrate the “all or vast majority” part of your statement, please produce just one source to educate the rest of us.
    Tfaddal istez:

    "No species has been found in which homosexual behaviour has not been shown to exist, with the exception of species that never have sex at all, such as sea urchins and aphis. Moreover, a part of the animal kingdom is hermaphroditic, truly bisexual. For them, homosexuality is not an issue."

    Here's the wikipedia link: Homosexual behavior in animals - Wikipedia

    And this from the very first google search hit. Are you happy now? Did that scratch your itch?
     
    Indie

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Don't get your knickers all tied up on my behalf, Ms. Drama Queen.

    So lack of consent really touched you... Interesting.
    My reply has nothing to do with what "touches me" (whatever that means), and everything to do with you randomly accusing someone of being "ok with rape" just because they are conservative / Christian. A preposterous claim, to say the least.
     
    AtheistForJesus

    AtheistForJesus

    Well-Known Member
    Interesting you say that. On average homosexuals tend to be more talented, more tasteful, and more humane than the average heterosexual. Maybe the the progress you speak of should be taken up by the group that you weren't thinking of. :)
    The best art comes from the most troubled souls.
     
    Indie

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Tfaddal istez:

    "No species has been found in which homosexual behaviour has not been shown to exist, with the exception of species that never have sex at all, such as sea urchins and aphis. Moreover, a part of the animal kingdom is hermaphroditic, truly bisexual. For them, homosexuality is not an issue."

    Here's the wikipedia link: Homosexual behavior in animals - Wikipedia

    And this from the very first google search hit. Are you happy now? Did that scratch your itch?

    From your very source:

    "Bagemihl adds, however, that this is "necessarily an account of human interpretations of these phenomena". Simon LeVay introduced caveat that "[a]lthough homosexual behavior is very common in the animal world, it seems to be very uncommon that individual animals have a long-lasting predisposition to engage in such behavior to the exclusion of heterosexual activities. Thus, a homosexual orientation, if one can speak of such thing in animals, seems to be a rarity."
     
    Libnene Qu7

    Libnene Qu7

    Super Ultra Senior Member
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    My reply has nothing to do with what "touches me" (whatever that means), and everything to do with you randomly accusing someone of being "ok with rape" just because they are conservative / Christian. A preposterous claim, to say the least.
    :oops:

    I meant his likes as in right winged nutters. I absolutely did not mean Christian conservatives. My own mother is a Christian conservative. Jeez Louiz.

    From your very source:

    "Bagemihl adds, however, that this is "necessarily an account of human interpretations of these phenomena". Simon LeVay introduced caveat that "[a]lthough homosexual behavior is very common in the animal world, it seems to be very uncommon that individual animals have a long-lasting predisposition to engage in such behavior to the exclusion of heterosexual activities. Thus, a homosexual orientation, if one can speak of such thing in animals, seems to be a rarity."
    Yes, and if you read it you will see that rarely do animals retain the same sexual partner. Promiscuity rules supreme in the animal kingdom. The point is, homosexual behavior is there naturally, it is not a disease.
     
    Libnene Qu7

    Libnene Qu7

    Super Ultra Senior Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    The best art comes from the most troubled souls.
    True, and troubled souls are usually those who are misunderstood, misjudged, and attacked for no reason other than being born in a certain way.
     
    Indie

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    :oops:

    I meant his likes as in right winged nutters. I absolutely did not mean Christian conservatives. My own mother is a Christian conservative. Jeez Louiz.
    Just because you call someone a right-wing nutter, it does not make him so. The reason you are calling him that, in the first place, is that he expresses conservative Christian values, and he's not wishy-washy about them.

    But to assume, from what he says, that he is "ok with rape" is preposterous.

    What he said, is that consent, alone, is not sufficiant to determine an action's morality. It's intellectually dishonest to construe that as being "ok with rape."

    Yes, and if you read it you will see that rarely do animals retain the same sexual partner. Promiscuity rules supreme in the animal kingdom. The point is, homosexual behavior is there naturally, it is not a disease.
    So what? We are not animals and we do not base our moral code on animal behaviour.
     
    Libnene Qu7

    Libnene Qu7

    Super Ultra Senior Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Just because you call someone a right-wing nutter, it does not make him so. The reason you are calling him that, in the first place, is that he expresses conservative Christian values, and he's not wishy-washy about them.

    But to assume, from what he says, that he is "ok with rape" is preposterous.

    What he said, is that consent, alone, is not sufficiant to determine an action's morality. It's intellectually dishonest to construe that as being "ok with rape."
    I beg to differ. Dismissing consent in this debate speaks volumes about said person's ethics.


    So what? We are not animals and we do not base our moral code on animal behaviour.
    As I mentioned earlier, the point is not that we must imitate animals. The point is that we can find this behavior elsewhere, thus cementing its natural aspect.
     
    AtheistForJesus

    AtheistForJesus

    Well-Known Member
    From your very source:

    "Bagemihl adds, however, that this is "necessarily an account of human interpretations of these phenomena". Simon LeVay introduced caveat that "[a]lthough homosexual behavior is very common in the animal world, it seems to be very uncommon that individual animals have a long-lasting predisposition to engage in such behavior to the exclusion of heterosexual activities. Thus, a homosexual orientation, if one can speak of such thing in animals, seems to be a rarity."
    Liberals are shooting themselves in the foot when they look to nature for guidance.
    Bonobos have been shown to engage in pedophilia too.
    But no one would argue it's natural and not a disorder, unless they have a certain political agenda to fulfil.
    To this day, pedophilia is still considered a psychiatric disorder.

    March 2013
     
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