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Will Catalonia secede from Spain?

Isabella

The queen of "Bazella"
Orange Room Supporter
Violence erupts as Catalans vote on split from Spain

BARCELONA (Reuters) - Spanish police used batons and rubber bullets to thwart an independence vote in Catalonia on Sunday in a show of force that left hundreds injured, according to Catalan officials, and presented Madrid with a huge challenge to calm tensions in the region.

Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy, who had declared the vote illegal, said amid one of Spain’s biggest political crises in decades that he would call all-party talks to “reflect on the future”, but dialogue over Catalonia would be “within the law”.

“We cannot allow that 40 years of harmony is thrown in the air though blackmail of the whole nation,” he added. “I hope that now they give up on the path that, as has been seen today, leads to nowhere.”

Earlier, the streets of Catalonia, an industrial and tourism powerhouse accounting for a fifth of the economy, erupted into violence as national police burst into polling stations with batons, dragging voters away. The action drew criticism at home and abroad.

Catalan officials said over 760 people had been injured in the police crackdown and the Spanish Interior Ministry said 12 police had been hurt.

“I propose that all political parties with parliamentary representation meet and, together, reflect on the future we all face,” Rajoy said in a televised address. However, he kept his firm stance against Catalan independence and praised police.

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The referendum has pitched the country into its deepest constitutional crisis in decades and deepened a centuries-old rift between Madrid and Barcelona.

Despite the national police action, some polling stations remained open, especially in areas under the supervision of the Catalan police force which adopted much milder tactics.

“I‘m so pleased because despite all the hurdles they’ve put up, I’ve managed to vote,” said Teresa, a 72-year-old pensioner in Barcelona who had stood in line for six hours to vote.


Scuffles break out as Spanish Civil Guard officers force their way through a crowd and into a polling station for the banned independence referendum where Catalan President Carles Puigdemont was supposed to vote in Sant Julia de Ramis. REUTERS/Juan Medina
It was still not known when the results would be announced, a regional government spokesman said, adding it had been a long day and it would be a long count.

Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont originally said that if the “yes” vote won, the Catalan government would declare independence within 48 hours, but regional leaders have since acknowledged Madrid’s crackdown has undermined the vote.

However many vote, a “yes” result is likely, given that most of those who support independence are expected to cast ballots while most of those against it are not.

At one voting station, a man with a Spanish flag wrapped around him cast a vote while others cheered. Polls show around 40 percent of the wealthy northeastern region want independence from Spain although a majority wanted a referendum on the issue.

The ballot will have no legal status as it has been blocked by Spain’s Constitutional Court which ruled it at odds with the 1978 constitution that effectively restored democracy in Spain after the dictatorship of General Francisco Franco.

Markets have reacted cautiously but calmly to the situation so far, though credit rating agency S&P said on Friday that protracted tensions could hurt Spain’s economic outlook.

Spain’s deputy prime minister said force used by the police had been proportionate.

“The absolute irresponsibility of the regional government has had to be met by the security forces of the state,” said Soraya Saenz de Santamaria.

Nicola Sturgeon, the pro-independence leader of Scotland, which voted to remain part of the United Kingdom in a 2014 referendum, said she was concerned by the images she was seeing from Catalonia.

“Regardless of views on independence, we should all condemn the scenes being witnessed and call on Spain to change course before someone is seriously hurt,” she said on Twitter.

Violence erupts as Catalans vote on split from Spain | Reuters
 

JustLeb

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
My own believe if the spanish central government didn't take serious steps to negotiate and find a solution to the problem,
things will worsen. They can't simply use force to subdue a people who wants to break free.
If the catalans really want their independence they will find a way to take it, the spanish will only try to delay it but can't stop it.
 

GrumpForTrump

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Sar mouda el referendum. I understand the need for some persecuted minorities like the Kurds to have their own state.
But who's persercuting Catalans?

They just want to secede because they believe they'll be richer on their own and won't have to share their wealth with the rest of the country. (Catalonia contributes to 20% of Spain's economy)

Kinda selfish if you ask me.
 

Isabella

The queen of "Bazella"
Orange Room Supporter
Sar mouda el referendum. I understand the need for some persecuted minorities like the Kurds to have their own state.
But who's persercuting Catalans?

They just want to secede because they believe they'll be richer on their own and won't have to share their wealth with the rest of the country. (Catalonia contributes to 20% of Spain's economy)

Kinda selfish if you ask me.

They'll be sharing in the debt as well so not all fun and roses lol! Today was absolutely horrible for Catalonia though I hope it goes better in the future, the Spanish government's vulgar display of power was definitely the wrong call
 

GrumpForTrump

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
They'll be sharing in the debt as well so not all fun and roses lol! Today was absolutely horrible for Catalonia though I hope it goes better in the future, the Spanish government's vulgar display of power was definitely the wrong call

I thought the reaction was proportionate. It's a coup d'etat if you think about it. Madrid has all the right to crack down on trouble makers.
 

proIsrael-nonIsraeli

Legendary Member
Sar mouda el referendum. I understand the need for some persecuted minorities like the Kurds to have their own state.
But who's persercuting Catalans?

They just want to secede because they believe they'll be richer on their own and won't have to share their wealth with the rest of the country. (Catalonia contributes to 20% of Spain's economy)

Kinda selfish if you ask me.

Humans are selfish if you ask me.
 

JustLeb

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Sar mouda el referendum. I understand the need for some persecuted minorities like the Kurds to have their own state.
But who's persercuting Catalans?

They just want to secede because they believe they'll be richer on their own and won't have to share their wealth with the rest of the country. (Catalonia contributes to 20% of Spain's economy)

Kinda selfish if you ask me.

Personally I am not with independence of Catalonia, however who the hell am I ? I am not catalan nor spanish.
The question of non persecution is not enough for people to feel the need for independence.
According to the news I have seen, catalans do not feel spanish, they don't have the same language, nor the same culture.
My own humble opinion, democracy states that people has the right to decide its fate.
Now spain has the right to convince voters not to vote for separation, but it has not the right to crack down on people.
ye3ni it needed a little nudge before it joins the big "democracies" that crack down on their people under "legal" pretexts
 

GrumpForTrump

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
The question of non persecution is not enough for people to feel the need for independence.
According to the news I have seen, catalans do not feel spanish, they don't have the same language, nor the same culture.

So what? The same could be said for Galicia, Basque Country, Asturias...Galicians and Basque people have their own language.

Spain is made up of autonomous regions, all with their unique history, culture, and sometimes language.

Being different is not enough reason to secede in my opinion.
 

JustLeb

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
So what? The same could be said for Galicia, Basque Country, Asturias...Galicians and Basque people have their own language.

Spain is made up of autonomous regions, all with their unique history, culture, and sometimes language.

Being different is not enough reason to secede in my opinion.

It is like your wife wants a divorce and you want to keep her by force not by convincing her.
I don't know why they want to leave, but it seems they don't want to stay in Spain...
They are doing a referendum for that, I don't see the problem.
the scotish made a referendum,
the UK made a referendum to leave EU
the referendum is a democratic way to let people decide
 

GrumpForTrump

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
It is like your wife wants a divorce and you want to keep her by force not by convincing her.
I don't know why they want to leave, but it seems they don't want to stay in Spain...
They are doing a referendum for that, I don't see the problem.
the scotish made a referendum,
the UK made a referendum to leave EU
the referendum is a democratic way to let people decide

Leaving a union is not the same as leaving a country.

But anyway, at this rate, there will be 500 countries by 2100.
 

Indie

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
From what I've been reading, the Basques are the most genetically and linguistically distinct group in Spain.

The Catalans are genetically the same as the rest of the Spanish, with perhaps a little less Jewish and North African ancestry. Their language also derives from Latin, just like Spanish.

So any difference they feel is rooted in historical political divisions between various regional rulers.
 

SeaAb

Legendary Member
Staff member
Super Penguin
Side note: The Spanish Constitutional Courts ruled beforehand that the proposed independence referendum is illegal. Catalonia went ahead anyways.
 

Jorje

Legendary Member
Seems like Spain scored an own goal. What's the point of this display of "power"? They could've easily just said the referendum is null and void since it's unconstitutional instead of trying to stop people from voting by violence.

OTOH, the Spanish constitution is overly restrictive and does not allow much room for regions seeking more autonomy, let even independence. Whatever. If Catalans do not want to be part of Spain they should have the right to.
 

The Bidenator

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Sar mouda el referendum. I understand the need for some persecuted minorities like the Kurds to have their own state.
But who's persercuting Catalans?

They just want to secede because they believe they'll be richer on their own and won't have to share their wealth with the rest of the country. (Catalonia contributes to 20% of Spain's economy)

Kinda selfish if you ask me.

Is it only economic reasons for wanting to secede?

On a side note, the following from the OP article undermines the entire referendum: "However many vote, a “yes” result is likely, given that most of those who support independence are expected to cast ballots while most of those against it are not." If true, referendum doesn't give accurate picture of Catalan feelings.
 

JeanH

Well-Known Member
Orange Room Supporter
on a side note abkhazia the defacto Russian state will recognize the catalonian state; Russian meddling in European affairs or just a rogue state trying to recognize another to give itself more recognition ?
 

JustLeb

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Leaving a union is not the same as leaving a country.

But anyway, at this rate, there will be 500 countries by 2100.

Québec did a referendum in the past.
Monté Négro also...
People come together when they see mutual interest, they split apart when this interest doesn't exist anymore.
I see it stupid dur Catalans to break but
But it's their right to decide but anyone else
 

Isabella

The queen of "Bazella"
Orange Room Supporter
From what I've been reading, the Basques are the most genetically and linguistically distinct group in Spain.

The Catalans are genetically the same as the rest of the Spanish, with perhaps a little less Jewish and North African ancestry. Their language also derives from Latin, just like Spanish.

So any difference they feel is rooted in historical political divisions between various regional rulers.

Their language is not derived from Latin, it is vulgar Latin... English French Italian Portuguese are also derived from Latin, so why limit it to Spanish lol? and Catalonia is on the border with France... They have as much in common with Spain as they do with the south of france :p
 

JustLeb

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Quand Le Figaro parlait du problème catalan... en 1917

"Le problème catalan était grave déjà, il y a trois et quatre siècles. Il est, aujourd'hui, plus complexe", écrivait Le Figaro... en 1917. "La Catalogne fait partie de l'Espagne, mais la Catalogne n'est pas l'Espagne", résumait-on alors. Certaines données perdurent : "Ces quatre provinces de la Catalogne, étant les plus laborieuses de toute l'Espagne et, partant, les plus riches, payent à l'État la somme d'impôts de beaucoup la plus forte, et, dès lors, le Catalan s'indigne de voir se perdre dans le gouffre général du budget, l'argent, son argent, le fruit de ses peines".

"L'esprit d'indépendance, l'esprit d'autonomie a subsisté, et non seulement il a subsisté avec la prospérité renaissante, mais il n'a pas cessé de se fortifier", poursuivait Le Figaro. "Que faire donc, sinon lui accorder l'autonomie administrative, la plus large qui soit compatible avec l'organisation générale d'un grand pays ?", concluait l'auteur de l'article. Une autonomie que la Catalogne a depuis obtenu, en 1932 puis de nouveau en 1979 après quarante ans de dictature franquiste. C'est maintenant l'indépendance qui gagne la région. Le problème catalan était déjà grave il y a un siècle. Il est, aujourd'hui, plus complexe encore.
 
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