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Would the universe exist without the existence of intelligent life

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  • My Moria Moon

    My Moria Moon

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Didn't bother to watch because we're never alone. Allah is everywhere. Now THAT i find to be interesting. :cigar:
    Son, do yourself a favor, take a vacation from your ta2 7anak twitters and engage a little into reclaiming your lost soul. This video is your last chance for redemption. If you thought Allah ma3ak everywhere you go, you need to know why and how come it is like so.

    Don't cheat your usual way out, it is in the last minutes of the video the truth is revealed. What's the purpose of anything if a living you was not here to tell about and enjoy it? Ma heke @Dark Angel?
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    Son, do yourself a favor, take a vacation from your ta2 7anak twitters and engage a little into reclaiming your lost soul. This video is your last chance for redemption. If you thought Allah ma3ak everywhere you go, you need to know why and how come it is like so.

    Don't cheat your usual way out, it is in the last minutes of the video the truth is revealed. What's the purpose of anything if a living you was not here to tell about and enjoy it? Ma heke @Dark Angel?
    ١ وَقَدَّمَ لَهُمْ مَثَلًا آخَرَ+ قَائِلًا:‏ «يُشْبِهُ مَلَكُوتُ ٱلسَّمٰوَاتِ حَبَّةَ خَرْدَلٍ،‏+ أَخَذَهَا إِنْسَانٌ وَزَرَعَهَا فِي حَقْلِهِ.‏ ٣٢ إِنَّهَا أَصْغَرُ جَمِيعِ ٱلْبُزُورِ،‏ وَلٰكِنْ مَتَى نَمَتْ تَكُونُ أَكْبَرَ ٱلْبُقُولِ وَتَغْدُو شَجَرَةً،‏ حَتَّى إِنَّ طُيُورَ ٱلسَّمَاءِ+ تَأْتِي وَتَجِدُ مَأْوًى بَيْنَ أَغْصَانِهَا».​

    you have to start somewhere, even if it was the tiniest truth, it will lead you to something much bigger.
     
    My Moria Moon

    My Moria Moon

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    ١ وَقَدَّمَ لَهُمْ مَثَلًا آخَرَ+ قَائِلًا:‏ «يُشْبِهُ مَلَكُوتُ ٱلسَّمٰوَاتِ حَبَّةَ خَرْدَلٍ،‏+ أَخَذَهَا إِنْسَانٌ وَزَرَعَهَا فِي حَقْلِهِ.‏ ٣٢ إِنَّهَا أَصْغَرُ جَمِيعِ ٱلْبُزُورِ،‏ وَلٰكِنْ مَتَى نَمَتْ تَكُونُ أَكْبَرَ ٱلْبُقُولِ وَتَغْدُو شَجَرَةً،‏ حَتَّى إِنَّ طُيُورَ ٱلسَّمَاءِ+ تَأْتِي وَتَجِدُ مَأْوًى بَيْنَ أَغْصَانِهَا».​

    you have to start somewhere, even if it was the tiniest truth, it will lead you to something much bigger.
    Preacher, rakkiz ma3e, I am not talking about agriculture here, we're in much deeper space. What becomes of any universe if void of any intelligent life to enjoy and admire it?
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    Preacher, rakkiz ma3e, I am not talking about agriculture here, we're in much deeper space. What becomes of any universe if void of any intelligent life to enjoy and admire it?
    would the universe still be worthy of admiration if there was no one around to admire it? would it still be worthy if there was no one around to share that admiration with? how can a life become intelligent and evolve enough to develop a healthy taste for admiration unless it recognizes truth and thirsts for discovering it?

    here is a truth though. there is nothing much to be admired in the universe in its raw state. it is all as dark as you can imagine, soundless, odorless, tasteless.. as creepy as you can imagine. to a certain extent it is hollow and void, close to nothingness. you see these beautiful photos captured by hubble and its cousins? it is not that they are artificially colored by NASA, it is rather that your own mind does that with everything; it overlays the colors, the sounds, and everything else which makes life worth living and which makes anything worth admiring :)

    so yes, that does indeed make the universe a beautiful place worth admiring, but it is the layers of meaning projected within your mind that induce this beauty. it is not a deception, it is rather an interpretation of an existing truth. and yes truth is like farming indeed, at any moment it can manifest itself out of the blue even in the tiniest of things, that is enough for it to take roots and to keep growing from there on.

    then you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.
     
    Iron Maiden

    Iron Maiden

    Paragon of Bacon
    Orange Room Supporter
    would the universe still be worthy of admiration if there was no one around to admire it? would it still be worthy if there was no one around to share that admiration with? how can a life become intelligent and evolve enough to develop a healthy taste for admiration unless it recognizes truth and thirsts for discovering it?

    here is a truth though. there is nothing much to be admired in the universe in its raw state. it is all as dark as you can imagine, soundless, odorless, tasteless.. as creepy as you can imagine. to a certain extent it is hollow and void, close to nothingness. you see these beautiful photos captured by hubble and its cousins? it is not that they are artificially colored by NASA, it is rather that your own mind does that with everything;
    If i were to go to a gas giant, extract methane and release it in a room where i can breathe, would i not smell that methane?
    If yes how come it is oderless?

    If i were to go to a red dwarf system, would i see the same light i see from the sun? If no, then why would you say it is colorless?

    NASA always adds “artist’s rendition” to a picture that is not released as is.

    There is beauty in the void as there is beauty in a lush valley, your own mind decides which elements make that beauty, its true, but it does not mean that there is none
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    If i were to go to a gas giant, extract methane and release it in a room where i can breathe, would i not smell that methane?
    If yes how come it is oderless?

    If i were to go to a red dwarf system, would i see the same light i see from the sun? If no, then why would you say it is colorless?

    NASA always adds “artist’s rendition” to a picture that is not released as is.

    There is beauty in the void as there is beauty in a lush valley, your own mind decides which elements make that beauty, its true, but it does not mean that there is none
    smelling and seeing are layers that your brain superposes on a cold reality that is odorless and colorless. odors are simply molecules interacting with their own recipients, and the colors you see are simply electromagnetic waves within a specific range on the corresponding spectrum stimulating photon receptors and resulting in electrical signals transmitted by your neurons. it is your brain that renders all of that to present it on a platform of meaning. so next time you try to communicate something to another person, do not simply think of it as speaking or uttering words, but it is rather that you are transferring information from one universe as it is absorbed by your brain, to another universe as it is absorbed by the mind of another.



    you remember that famous scene from the matrix? "so, what is the matrix you ask? :p it is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth." it is somewhat like that, except that it works in the opposite direction. the matrix is the world of information your mind pulls over the colorless, odorless, and cold universe, to make sense of the truth. a prison, not for your mind, but a prison your mind builds for the universe.


    and in the beginning, was the Word.
     
    Iron Maiden

    Iron Maiden

    Paragon of Bacon
    Orange Room Supporter
    smelling and seeing are layers that your brain superposes on a cold reality that is odorless and colorless. odors are simply molecules interacting with their own recipients, and the colors you see are simply electromagnetic waves within a specific range on the corresponding spectrum stimulating photon receptors and resulting in electrical signals transmitted by your neurons. it is your brain that renders all of that to present it on a platform of meaning. so next time you try to communicate something to another person, do not simply think of it as speaking or uttering words, but it is rather that you are transferring information from one universe as it is absorbed by your brain, to another universe as it is absorbed by the mind of another.



    you remember that famous scene from the matrix? "so, what is the matrix you ask? :p it is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth." it is somewhat like that, except that it works in the opposite direction. the matrix is the world of information your mind pulls over the colorless, odorless, and cold universe, to make sense of the truth. a prison, not for your mind, but a prison your mind builds for the universe.


    and in the beginning, was the Word.
    Oh boi you’re on fire today :)

    1- the initial idea of @My Moria Moon was very clear, would a universe without intelligent life exist, if nothing/no one perceives the universe. From this premise, you launched your first salvo saying that there is nothing but void and coldness and it is our brains that make believe by adding layers of colors and odors etc.. well its not technically true. An electromagnetic wave is also made of particles so there is indeed something tangible there, and the sensors we as a specie have develloped to capture those particles is but one iteration of how o make sense of them.

    So the initial pov is valid and as far as i see it, it is reinforced by ur observation of death and coldness. If it were left for itself, the universe would not exists at more than a chemical level, and intelligent life has developed ways to not only see it exist, but make it live on different spectrums.

    2- The word could not exist unless it was vibrating some physical layer to be perceived by something else, or else the word would be drowned in the void. So the need for sensors/intelligent life to perceive even the word is made apparent. Even though the word was merely highly condensed hydrogen, but that is beyond our scope here :p
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    Oh boi you’re on fire today :)

    1- the initial idea of @My Moria Moon was very clear, would a universe without intelligent life exist, if nothing/no one perceives the universe. From this premise, you launched your first salvo saying that there is nothing but void and coldness and it is our brains that make believe by adding layers of colors and odors etc.. well its not technically true. An electromagnetic wave is also made of particles so there is indeed something tangible there, and the sensors we as a specie have develloped to capture those particles is but one iteration of how o make sense of them.
    actually that was not what MMM's original question says or suggests, i did however overlook the miscategorization, as the topic itself is still one worth pondering. so let's stop a bit at the new title of the thread. the existence of the universe is not really contingent on the existence of intelligent life, and the existence of observers inside the universe is a physical impossibility in the universe's early stages. that said, there is a legitimacy to the question from the wegner/von-neumann's interpretation of quantum theory, where the argument is that consciousness is what brings the universe into existence, and something can only exist when it is being observed by a conscious observer.

    now that said, the electromagnetic waves are all of the same nature, your brain simply reacts to a tiny range on the corresponding frequency spectrum, and translates those different frequencies into tangible colors. but there is no such things as colors in the raw universe. these only exist on a more complex plane of existence, one that is higher up in the hierarchy of information and awareness.

    So the initial pov is valid and as far as i see it, it is reinforced by ur observation of death and coldness. If it were left for itself, the universe would not exists at more than a chemical level, and intelligent life has developed ways to not only see it exist, but make it live on different spectrums.
    no disagreement here, but needs editing, pay closer attention to the representation of the content you are intending to communicate, and only when you realize that it has to be delivered from one universe to another, you will recognize the importance of eloquence and clarity :p

    2- The word could not exist unless it was vibrating some physical layer to be perceived by something else, or else the word would be drowned in the void. So the need for sensors/intelligent life to perceive even the word is made apparent. Even though the word was merely highly condensed hydrogen, but that is beyond our scope here :p
    when you read "in the beginning was the Word" you think of it as the pronounced reverberation of sound? :)
    the Word is the Logos, the mind of God. i quoted that verse to illustrate the Christian perspective that the universe was created as a vessel for meaning and information. so on the sub-physical layer, all matter in the universe follows abstract mathematical laws, and on the super-physical layer all matter is at the service of information. which spells doom for all materialistic ideologies, even if we overlook the obvious oxymoron.
     
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    My Moria Moon

    My Moria Moon

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    actually that was not what MMM's original question says or suggests, i did however overlook the miscategorization, as the topic itself is still one worth pondering. so let's stop a bit at the new title of the thread. the existence of the universe is not really contingent on the existence of intelligent life, and the existence of observers inside the universe is a physical impossibility in the universe's early stages. that said, there is a legitimacy to the question from the wegner/von-neumann's interpretation of quantum theory, where the argument is that consciousness is what brings the universe into existence, and something can only exist when it is being observed by a conscious observer.

    now that said, the electromagnetic waves are all of the same nature, your brain simply reacts to a tiny range on the corresponding frequency spectrum, and translates those different frequencies into tangible colors. but there is no such things as colors in the raw universe. these only exist on a more complex plane of existence, one that is higher up in the hierarchy of information and awareness.


    no disagreement here, but needs editing, pay closer attention to the representation of the content you are intending to communicate, and only when you realize that it has to be delivered from one universe to another, you will recognize the importance of eloquence and clarity :p


    when you read "in the beginning was the Word" you think of it as the pronounced reverberation of sound? :)
    the Word is the Logos, the mind of God. i quoted that verse to illustrate the Christian perspective that the universe was created as a vessel for meaning and information. so on the sub-physical layer, all matter in the universe follows abstract mathematical laws, and on the super-physical layer all matter is at the service of information. which spells doom for all materialistic ideologies, even if we overlook the obvious oxymoron.
    Neither you nor mr @Iron Maiden are misinterpreting my question, rather inflating it cosmo-philosophically, I like that.

    But to relate to your input on the matter, whether you are dealing with mathematical, super or metaphysical laws, the one and only irrefutable truth that we can blindly rely on is that we are the only reference through which the universe is perceived and defined the way it does for us. And even if it shouldn't matter much in the total scheme of our inescapable reality, everything else ceases to have any meaning outside this reference, simply because we have no way of knowing. And that may very well include what we think of as universal hard codes, like mathematical and physical laws and constants. For life forms sharing this same universe while equipped with different sets of senses, this may turn out to be a totally different universe, in appearance, laws as well as in functionalities and meaning.

    And this includes what you repeatedly refer to as The Truth. Thus conversely, what has anything, including The Truth of anything, for value at any stage of a progressing but void-of-life universe? It's rather meaningless to even have a word for such a non-perceivable existence. What truth can exist at a universe's big bang, and then at each nano second of its inflation? And most importantly, if any existed, to what use, when there's no intelligent life, nor any will ever exist, to take advantage out of what is being displayed around its being?

    And I'm back at my initial reflection: In a void of life vast universe, what's such void of life vastness for? What does an empty of life universe do?
    Or are universes created for only one purpose and that is to harbor life?
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    Neither you nor mr @Iron Maiden are misinterpreting my question, rather inflating it cosmo-philosophically, I like that.

    But to relate to your input on the matter, whether you are dealing with mathematical, super or metaphysical laws, the one and only irrefutable truth that we can blindly rely on is that we are the only reference through which the universe is perceived and defined the way it does for us. And even if it shouldn't matter much in the total scheme of our inescapable reality, everything else ceases to have any meaning outside this reference, simply because we have no way of knowing. And that may very well include what we think of as universal hard codes, like mathematical and physical laws and constants. For life forms sharing this same universe while equipped with different sets of senses, this may turn out to be a totally different universe, in appearance, laws as well as in functionalities and meaning.

    And this includes what you repeatedly refer to as The Truth. Thus conversely, what has anything, including The Truth of anything, for value at any stage of a progressing but void-of-life universe? It's rather meaningless to even have a word for such a non-perceivable existence. What truth can exist at a universe's big bang, and then at each nano second of its inflation? And most importantly, if any existed, to what use, when there's no intelligent life, nor any will ever exist, to take advantage out of what is being displayed around its being?

    And I'm back at my initial reflection: In a void of life vast universe, what's such void of life vastness for? What does an empty of life universe do?
    Or are universes created for only one purpose and that is to harbor life?
    it would be a bit presumptuous to assume that we know all the answers, or to claim that we are at the center of creation, when the time of mankind's ascension to awareness does not even represent a tiny blimp when measured against the age of the universe. we do not even register on the cosmological scale, and consequently any hypothesis or conjecture we form relatively to the purpose and the meaning of the universe is relatively insignificant.

    however if earth, for some reason, is the only planet that harbors life in the universe, then our utmost priority should be to respect it, preserve it, help it prosper and help it spread across the vast universe, if only out of respect for the tremendous effort the tiny DNA strings have invested across time and the tremendous hurdles they surmounted and the astronomical odds they overcame. even if we take God out of the equation, it takes a very vile kind of people to look down on purpose and meaning and turn instead to embrace anarchism and chaos.

    it suffices to take a little look around us to realize how far away we have veered from the course that would safeguard and spread life in the universe. and this is where that hypothetical question about the universe translates into one with concrete consequences on our planet, why did we reach this depleted stage and why we have lost track of the big picture? we have to believe in something bigger and better than ourselves in order to regain our equilibrium, and prosper in terms relative to a reality other than that of wall street. this is the reason why the little that we have accomplished should be protected and preserved not destroyed, and should be spread to the rest of the world because our capacity for destruction is inversely proportional to the speed with which we bridge the knowledge gap across our species. nothing is more destructive than partial knowledge and half truths.

    that said, there is exists a truth embedded in the universe that exists independently of our consciousness, and it is in fact that truth which gave rise to these concepts of awareness. logic for instance is one of the building blocks of some of the multiple level layers that create awareness. it independently exists in the universe and it establishes a set of truths of its own. there is no escaping the fact that our scientific research is simply exposing a preexisting truth.

    now where does that leave us? you need to make sense of the preexisting truth? you need to have a transcendent meaning to move forward in the universe? nothing can offer you all of that unless you bow down to the Divine, and not any Divine for that matter. now this may very well be one of the strangest arguments for faith, despite it being the most valid one from a certain perspective. is that not the rational argument for faith in the divine that pascal presented in his wager? is that not the warning from nietzsche to mankind? “God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves?.."

    in short, if you want mankind to survive its own shortcomings on the cross roads between extinguishing all life on this planet and rising to fill the universe, you have to treat every truth with the sacred respect it deserves. all of that makes the most sense from a Christian perspective. love each other, help each other, be perfect like your Father in heaven is perfect, etc.. and never forget, Ego Sum Via Veritas et Vita.

    and where many people refuse to subscribe to the notion of a created universe because of a grudge they have against God, we may never be able to answer whether or not the universe itself would still be there without any consciousness to examine it, but we should know enough to realize that we are here now, and we need to make the best out of our existence, and we should indeed treat our reality as if life exists exclusively on this dust spec called earth, and learn what that means and what it entails.
     
    My Moria Moon

    My Moria Moon

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    it would be a bit presumptuous to assume that we know all the answers, or to claim that we are at the center of creation, when the time of mankind's ascension to awareness does not even represent a tiny blimp when measured against the age of the universe. we do not even register on the cosmological scale, and consequently any hypothesis or conjecture we form relatively to the purpose and the meaning of the universe is relatively insignificant.

    however if earth, for some reason, is the only planet that harbors life in the universe, then our utmost priority should be to respect it, preserve it, help it prosper and help it spread across the vast universe, if only out of respect for the tremendous effort the tiny DNA strings have invested across time and the tremendous hurdles they surmounted and the astronomical odds they overcame. even if we take God out of the equation, it takes a very vile kind of people to look down on purpose and meaning and turn instead to embrace anarchism and chaos.

    it suffices to take a little look around us to realize how far away we have veered from the course that would safeguard and spread life in the universe. and this is where that hypothetical question about the universe translates into one with concrete consequences on our planet, why did we reach this depleted stage and why we have lost track of the big picture? we have to believe in something bigger and better than ourselves in order to regain our equilibrium, and prosper in terms relative to a reality other than that of wall street. this is the reason why the little that we have accomplished should be protected and preserved not destroyed, and should be spread to the rest of the world because our capacity for destruction is inversely proportional to the speed with which we bridge the knowledge gap across our species. nothing is more destructive than partial knowledge and half truths.

    that said, there is exists a truth embedded in the universe that exists independently of our consciousness, and it is in fact that truth which gave rise to these concepts of awareness. logic for instance is one of the building blocks of some of the multiple level layers that create awareness. it independently exists in the universe and it establishes a set of truths of its own. there is no escaping the fact that our scientific research is simply exposing a preexisting truth.

    now where does that leave us? you need to make sense of the preexisting truth? you need to have a transcendent meaning to move forward in the universe? nothing can offer you all of that unless you bow down to the Divine, and not any Divine for that matter. now this may very well be one of the strangest arguments for faith, despite it being the most valid one from a certain perspective. is that not the rational argument for faith in the divine that pascal presented in his wager? is that not the warning from nietzsche to mankind? “God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves?.."

    in short, if you want mankind to survive its own shortcomings on the cross roads between extinguishing all life on this planet and rising to fill the universe, you have to treat every truth with the sacred respect it deserves. all of that makes the most sense from a Christian perspective. love each other, help each other, be perfect like your Father in heaven is perfect, etc.. and never forget, Ego Sum Via Veritas et Vita.

    and where many people refuse to subscribe to the notion of a created universe because of a grudge they have against God, we may never be able to answer whether or not the universe itself would still be there without any consciousness to examine it, but we should know enough to realize that we are here now, and we need to make the best out of our existence, and we should indeed treat our reality as if life exists exclusively on this dust spec called earth, and learn what that means and what it entails.
    My dear abouna, if I was asking for a green peace preaching session, with religious tarator flavor, I'd have sent you a warm Amen to that. But neither mankind's behavior nor earth destiny are in our ninja philocosmosophers minds at this moment. We're further exploring the illusive nature of our consciousness, for ever entangled inside the riddle of creation. What becomes of this universe, how can it be conceived in the total absence of a conscious living mind?

    The canvas of reality each one of us draws the minute we're introduced into this universe is woven by the exact same set of common earthy biological conditions. These are the conditions that allow us to interpret not only the wave lights we see and sounds we hear but also the very concept of truth as we choose to believe in. If neither color, sound nor smell existed in a lifeless raw universe with no brains to fundamentally create and later interpret these physical manifestations, how can we not think of anything else to be just another self produced, most probably imaginatively illusive manifestation of the lucky symbiosis of our specific biology and this specific universal arrangement of physical context?

    If we're allowed to cast a religious wink at the subject, the tricky part would be for us to decide whether it makes any difference for us if we discover we are the only representative species for consciousness AND at the same the ultimate purpose behind the creation of this universe. If this happens to be the case, then we'd be certain we're indespensible and the creation will see so that we'll remain around for as long as the universe itself exists, NO MATTER WHAT WE DO.

    If consciousness itself, being earthy biological and elsewhere otherwise, is what the universe works for, then we'd be certain we are at least less indispensable than if we were alone in the entire universe; and from that insight on we'd have only ourselves to prove our viability in the universal survival competition.
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    My dear abouna, if I was asking for a green peace preaching session, with religious tarator flavor, I'd have sent you a warm Amen to that. But neither mankind's behavior nor earth destiny are in our ninja philocosmosophers minds at this moment. We're further exploring the illusive nature of our consciousness, for ever entangled inside the riddle of creation. What becomes of this universe, how can it be conceived in the total absence of a conscious living mind?

    The canvas of reality each one of us draws the minute we're introduced into this universe is woven by the exact same set of common earthy biological conditions. These are the conditions that allow us to interpret not only the wave lights we see and sounds we hear but also the very concept of truth as we choose to believe in. If neither color, sound nor smell existed in a lifeless raw universe with no brains to fundamentally create and later interpret these physical manifestations, how can we not think of anything else to be just another self produced, most probably imaginatively illusive manifestation of the lucky symbiosis of our specific biology and this specific universal arrangement of physical context?

    If we're allowed to cast a religious wink at the subject, the tricky part would be for us to decide whether it makes any difference for us if we discover we are the only representative species for consciousness AND at the same the ultimate purpose behind the creation of this universe. If this happens to be the case, then we'd be certain we're indespensible and the creation will see so that we'll remain around for as long as the universe itself exists, NO MATTER WHAT WE DO.
    the little that we have gathered indicates and suggests that the universe, at the very least, is not the product of chaos and randomness. to jump beyond this to any certitude requires a considerable leap of faith. but regardless, and whatever was the case, could there be any better future for mankind without a belief in a transcendent or in a set of ideals that indicates the direction of our evolution as individuals and as a society? this is a given on atomic, molecular and biological levels. if life was to be defined, this would be it. particles and elements coming together at every given level to create a higher one that is more aware, and more conscious.

    now the issue of truth and its origin is quite a complicated one, it is however a fact that truth is embedded both in the structures of the universe and in our minds, it is not simply a mirroring effect, for at times mathematical concepts are theoretically derived just as an academic exercise, only to find out later that these notions do indeed have their place and their applications in the physical world, and this is the more intriguing bit. however that is quite conforming with the nature of truth, and i cannot emphasize or repeat that enough, if you start with a minimal truth, it is bound to open the gates for a bigger truth and start a - probably unending - chain of discoveries along specific paths. so as such even if you remove the impact of consciousness on the perception of the universe, truth would still exist independently of the existence of intelligent life within the universe. and the real question then becomes can truth ever be presented as a natural phenomena or are these immaterial threads holding the world together a manifestation of what we refer to as the Divine?

    and from a Christian perspective, even if we were totally alone in this universe, the difference is still made by how we carry ourselves up, in perfect harmony with pretty well established consequences that emanate from free will, and all the prerequisites for salvation.

    If consciousness itself, being earthy biological and elsewhere otherwise, is what the universe works for, then we'd be certain we are at least less indispensable than if we were alone in the entire universe; and from that insight on we'd have only ourselves to prove our viability in the universal survival competition.
    i doubt we will be reaching an answer to that question soon. however the two possible scenarios are quite clear, at least from a conceptual level, and we need to plan and act in accordance with these scenarios, from one side operating as if life as we know it is unique and infinitely valuable, and from another side that there are many other civilizations in the universe and consequently we need to rise to the level that can ensure our survival in case some of these civilizations proves to be aggressive, or at least as aggressive as we are.
     
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    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    Preacher, rakkiz ma3e, I am not talking about agriculture here, we're in much deeper space. What becomes of any universe if void of any intelligent life to enjoy and admire it?
    btw, ahdam shi in this thread is the like you have received from @Rachel Corrie for the post i just quoted :lol::lol:
     
    Orangina

    Orangina

    Legendary Member
    smelling and seeing are layers that your brain superposes on a cold reality that is odorless and colorless. odors are simply molecules interacting with their own recipients, and the colors you see are simply electromagnetic waves within a specific range on the corresponding spectrum stimulating photon receptors and resulting in electrical signals transmitted by your neurons. it is your brain that renders all of that to present it on a platform of meaning. so next time you try to communicate something to another person, do not simply think of it as speaking or uttering words, but it is rather that you are transferring information from one universe as it is absorbed by your brain, to another universe as it is absorbed by the mind of another.



    you remember that famous scene from the matrix? "so, what is the matrix you ask? :p it is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth." it is somewhat like that, except that it works in the opposite direction. the matrix is the world of information your mind pulls over the colorless, odorless, and cold universe, to make sense of the truth. a prison, not for your mind, but a prison your mind builds for the universe.


    and in the beginning, was the Word.
    nice
     
    Orangina

    Orangina

    Legendary Member
    We will always believe that we will find true answers for existential questions...but the truth is that we will never obtain real answers
    man explains all the phenomena surrounding him from his own perspective...and I think that whatever is the question asked man can only find answers limited by his own conscience...

    Universe is the reflection of our own consciousness and being a person who believes that we are not alone in this universe I believe that other creatures with other capacities and different ways of consciousness and intelligence will perceive the universe in a totally different way than ours.
     
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